Woodland Indians Forum

You are not logged in.

Announcement

  • Index
  •  » Language
  •  » Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

#176 May-16-2018 12:01:am

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

sschkaak wrote:

19. "him whom she held"

keelennatpannil or keelennatpanni

It IS a Conjunct Order Obviative form.  And, participles must undergo initial change.

Lesson 2, Part 3 shows participles with obviative endings.  Other conjunct modes do not use them.

Just so I can be laser clear as I go back and make a notation for myself. The Conjunct Order-Obviative Form IS ALSO A Participle? And because it is a Participle, it has an initial change.

I also now understand the "-t-" much better. It which is actually the "-t" ending for a participle and can be changed to "-tsch" when followed directly by the "-il" obviative ending.

I was just correcting the word you wrote as "kleenawahan."  The prohibitive mode ending is just -ahan.  It doesn't have a -w- in it.  And, imperatives do not undergo any kind of initial change.

The "-w-" in "kleenawahan" now makes much more sense to me. It's not a negative suffix! It's part of the verb stem. I was mixing those up.

(It is evident that the aging process has dulled my mental acuity!)

nwuliwoata - "I know well" (I think I've got that right? I haven't learned how to use "you" as an object in a verb construction.)

Offline

 

#177 May-16-2018 11:12:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4220
Website

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

Your understanding on these points is correct. 

nwuliwoata should be noliwoatam ("I know well").

You wrote:  "I haven't learned how to use "you" as an object in a verb construction."   You soon will.

Offline

 

#178 May-16-2018 10:48:pm

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

sschkaak wrote:

nwuliwoata should be noliwoatam ("I know well").

Of course....because the verb doesn't just start with "w-" it starts with "wu-"

But why does it end with "-m"? The example in Lesson 7 Part 1 with "pohonasin" drops the final "-n" in its conjugations except for "there is drumming going in."

I interpreted the AI Independent Indicative verbal construction as a prefix + the verb stem.

Back to Lesson 10.

Offline

 

#179 May-17-2018 09:20:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4220
Website

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

johnb wrote:

sschkaak wrote:

nwuliwoata should be noliwoatam ("I know well").

Of course....because the verb doesn't just start with "w-" it starts with "wu-"

But why does it end with "-m"? The example in Lesson 7 Part 1 with "pohonasin" drops the final "-n" in its conjugations except for "there is drumming going in."

I interpreted the AI Independent Indicative verbal construction as a prefix + the verb stem.

This verb is not an AI (Animate Intransitive) verb.  It is an OTI (Objectless Transitive Inanimate) verb.  You haven't gotten to the TI verb lessons yet.

Offline

 

#180 May-18-2018 12:52:am

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

sschkaak wrote:

This verb is not an AI (Animate Intransitive) verb.  It is an OTI (Objectless Transitive Inanimate) verb.  You haven't gotten to the TI verb lessons yet.

Ah interesting...so I went back to Lesson 6. The difference between AI and OTI seems very subtle.

"1. Animate Intransitive (AI) - An AI verb is one the action of which is performed by an animate subject--that is, by a grammatically "living" being. These verbs have a subject, but no "object."

3. Objectless Transitive Inanimate (OTI) - An OTI verb is one the action of which is performed by an animate subject, but which has no "object" (similar to AI verbs)."

I guess I'll wait to see the OTI verb examples...

Offline

 

#181 May-18-2018 01:25:am

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

Question about Lesson 10, Part 5 - Absolute State of the Transitive Animate Theme 2 verb, with Indefinite Subject.

So the lesson starts out with the important idea that the TA Theme 2 Theme Sign is "the letter "k" (sometimes written as "c," "g" or "q"), after the verb stem."

I've been tracking that theme sign throughout parts 1-4, but when I get to part 5 it seems to have disappeared? Am I missing it? Does it not apply to Absolute State of TA Theme 2?

"kikeh-" ('heal somebody').

ngikeheek   "I am healed"

kikeheek   "you (sg.) are healed"

Offline

 

#182 May-18-2018 05:33:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4220
Website

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

johnb wrote:

Question about Lesson 10, Part 5 - Absolute State of the Transitive Animate Theme 2 verb, with Indefinite Subject.

So the lesson starts out with the important idea that the TA Theme 2 Theme Sign is "the letter "k" (sometimes written as "c," "g" or "q"), after the verb stem."

I've been tracking that theme sign throughout parts 1-4, but when I get to part 5 it seems to have disappeared? Am I missing it? Does it not apply to Absolute State of TA Theme 2?

"kikeh-" ('heal somebody').

ngikeheek   "I am healed"

kikeheek   "you (sg.) are healed"

It's the -k at the end of these words.  I simplified the theme sign to "k" here, in order to avoid the various morphophonemic changes it undergoes after various verb stems, which would unnecessarily complicate the lesson.  If you refer back to Lesson 6, Part 3, you'll recall this:

"TA Theme 2 - The TA "inverse theme sign" is "-ukw-." (The "-w" is sometimes dropped, in SPELLING, when this "theme sign" is at the end of a word.) Of course, the "k"-sound can show up as a "c," "g" or "q," also. This "theme sign" indicates that the initial "direction" of the verbal action is "right to left" (object < verb < subject)."

I didn't want to get into how and why the "-u-" of the underlying theme sign changes in different environments.  That's something that can be learned after these lessons, if you feel it necessary.  It's "easy" enough to simply learn what the surface forms look like without cluttering your mind with phonological rules.

Offline

 

#183 May-19-2018 10:02:pm

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

sschkaak wrote:

"TA Theme 2 - The TA "inverse theme sign" is "-ukw-." (The "-w" is sometimes dropped, in SPELLING, when this "theme sign" is at the end of a word.) Of course, the "k"-sound can show up as a "c," "g" or "q," also. This "theme sign" indicates that the initial "direction" of the verbal action is "right to left" (object < verb < subject)."

Ah...indeed. I appreciate you trying to pare down the lessons at the expense of some of the subtleties like the "-u-". There's plenty to try to understand and follow as it is! Lesson 6 is becoming more and more useful as I move forward. I can see now how it's one almost worth revisiting as a student going through each new lesson on verbs. The first time through a few weeks ago lot of it didn't click for me smile

Offline

 

#184 May-19-2018 11:03:pm

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

Without you using those dashes I sometimes use as breaks to help me try to follow the different parts of the conjugation, can you help me unpack the suffixes from the TA 2 theme sign in Lesson 10 Part 7.

I'll give you three examples of the same general question about identifying TA 2 theme sign vs. other suffixes?

1. naalquonne "if she fetches you (sg.)"

I think "-qu" is a variation of the "-ukw" sign and there is an "-e" suffix for the subjunctive. Is "-onn" a separate bound pronoun suffix from the TA 2 theme sign?

2. naalquenke "if it fetches us (ex.)"

Again, I think "-qu" is a variation of the "-ukw" sign and there is an "-e" suffix for the subjunctive. Is "-enk" a separate bound pronoun suffix from the TA 2 theme sign?

3. naalquonk "that which fetches us (in.)"

I think "quo" is a variation of the "-ukw" sign and there is an "-nk" suffix for the participle. Basically I'm having a hard time identifying a bound pronoun suffix if there is one?

Offline

 

#185 May-20-2018 12:57:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4220
Website

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

johnb wrote:

Without you using those dashes I sometimes use as breaks to help me try to follow the different parts of the conjugation, can you help me unpack the suffixes from the TA 2 theme sign in Lesson 10 Part 7.

I'll give you three examples of the same general question about identifying TA 2 theme sign vs. other suffixes?

1. naalquonne "if she fetches you (sg.)"

I think "-qu" is a variation of the "-ukw" sign and there is an "-e" suffix for the subjunctive. Is "-onn" a separate bound pronoun suffix from the TA 2 theme sign?

Surface form is naal-qu-onn-e = Underlying form /naal-ukw-ann-e/ = verb stem-theme sign-2nd person singular-subjunctive mode.  (Remember that this theme sign ALWAYS indicates a 3rd person subject.  Underlying -a- changes to -o- in the surface form due to the influence of the preceding -w- of the theme sign.  That is, the pronunciation changes from short a to short o.)

2. naalquenke "if it fetches us (ex.)"

Again, I think "-qu" is a variation of the "-ukw" sign and there is an "-e" suffix for the subjunctive. Is "-enk" a separate bound pronoun suffix from the TA 2 theme sign?

Surface form is naal-qu-enk-e = Underlying form /naal-ukw-enk-e/ = verb stem-theme sign-1st person plural-subjunctive mode.

3. naalquonk "that which fetches us (in.)"

I think "quo" is a variation of the "-ukw" sign and there is an "-nk" suffix for the participle. Basically I'm having a hard time identifying a bound pronoun suffix if there is one?

Surface form is naal-qu-onk = Underlying form /naal-ukw-ankw-0/ = verb stem-theme sign-1st person plural inclusive.  (For -a- to -o-, see above.  The 0 [zero] at the end of the underlying form indicates that there is no position 7 peripheral ending which would indicate a plural, so the 3rd person subject is singular.  Whether it is animate or inanimate is determined by context.  For example, if "that which fetches us" is a canoe, then it's inanimate; but if it's a man then it's animate: "he who fetches us.")

Offline

 

#186 May-21-2018 12:10:am

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

sschkaak wrote:

Surface form is naal-qu-onn-e = Underlying form /naal-ukw-ann-e/ = verb stem-theme sign-2nd person singular-subjunctive mode.

This breakdown based on the underlying form is super helpful. I'm definitely trying to do far less sophisticated versions of this when I write a conjugated form down. It can lead to some tricky situations for me in terms of making sense of the conjugation. Interestingly it can apply to "simple" conjugations as well as more complex ones.

For example

1. Conjunct Indicative Mode-Positive Form: "Quatsch naatenink?" - Why am I taken? (Part 8)

verb stem-theme sign

2. Conjunct Indicative Mode-Negative Form: "Quatsch taku naateniwonk?" - Why am I not taken? (Part 8)

verb stem-negation suffix-theme sign ? But this isn't right because the theme sign should always follow the verb stem. So I would expect something like "Quatsch taku naatenonkwi?"

Finally, another participle form from Part 7, but this time for the third person

3. Participle: "naalit" - "he who fetches me" (Part 7)

verb stem-theme sign-3rd person participle ending

Does the "k" sound in the theme sign "disappear" to make way for the "-t" 3rd person participle animate ending?

I keep thinking I'll start the Quiz, but this is a dense lesson!

Offline

 

#187 May-21-2018 06:41:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4220
Website

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

johnb wrote:

sschkaak wrote:

Surface form is naal-qu-onn-e = Underlying form /naal-ukw-ann-e/ = verb stem-theme sign-2nd person singular-subjunctive mode.

This breakdown based on the underlying form is super helpful. I'm definitely trying to do far less sophisticated versions of this when I write a conjugated form down. It can lead to some tricky situations for me in terms of making sense of the conjugation. Interestingly it can apply to "simple" conjugations as well as more complex ones.

For example

1. Conjunct Indicative Mode-Positive Form: "Quatsch naatenink?" - Why am I taken? (Part 8)

verb stem-theme sign

More fully:  verb stem-theme sign-conjunct indicative indefinite person suffix.  The underlying form is naaten-i-ink.  (The surface form merges the two "i's.")

2. Conjunct Indicative Mode-Negative Form: "Quatsch taku naateniwonk?" - Why am I not taken? (Part 8)

verb stem-negation suffix-theme sign ? But this isn't right because the theme sign should always follow the verb stem. So I would expect something like "Quatsch taku naatenonkwi?"

Bear in mind that the indefinite person is the subject of these forms which are rendered as passives, while the first person singular is actually the object.  It could be translated as "Why doesn't some indefinite person take me?"  That's really too clumsy for English, so using the passive voice is better.  Therefore, the surface form is naaten-i-w-onk = underlying form /naaten-i-w-ank/ = verb stem-theme sign-negative-conjunct indicative.  (Another possible surface form is naateniwink.  The form is so rare that variations did occur, but I chose the one shown in the lesson.  The breakdown remains the same.)

Finally, another participle form from Part 7, but this time for the third person

3. Participle: "naalit" - "he who fetches me" (Part 7)

verb stem-theme sign-3rd person participle ending

Does the "k" sound in the theme sign "disappear" to make way for the "-t" 3rd person participle animate ending?

The theme sign for 3rd person subject and 1st person object is -i-.  See Lesson 10, Part 6:  "{Please note that the forms with first person singular objects DO NOT use the usual theme sign, "k," but use, instead, an "i."  In addition, for first person singular objects, the Animate 3rd person subjects are distinguished by the suffix, "-t," and the Inanimate  3rd person Subjects are given the suffix "-k."  These are the only exceptions to the normal procedure, among TA Theme 2 verbs.}"

Offline

 

#188 May-21-2018 11:17:pm

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

sschkaak wrote:

johnb wrote:

3. Participle: "naalit" - "he who fetches me" (Part 7)

verb stem-theme sign-3rd person participle ending

Does the "k" sound in the theme sign "disappear" to make way for the "-t" 3rd person participle animate ending?

The theme sign for 3rd person subject and 1st person object is -i-.  See Lesson 10, Part 6:  "{Please note that the forms with first person singular objects DO NOT use the usual theme sign, "k," but use, instead, an "i."  In addition, for first person singular objects, the Animate 3rd person subjects are distinguished by the suffix, "-t," and the Inanimate  3rd person Subjects are given the suffix "-k."  These are the only exceptions to the normal procedure, among TA Theme 2 verbs.}"

Duh John! Right, so it's very simple actually: verb stem-theme sign-3rd person participle ending for the surface form naal-i-t

Ok, it's finally time to start the Quiz exercise.

Offline

 

#189 May-22-2018 12:50:am

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

No grammar question tonight, but I do have somewhat of a philosophical question so feel free to answer this without extensive comment or by just punting.

The TA Theme 2 form: Why does this form exist? Why have an inverse verb form where the object comes first?

I looked at a copy of Ives Goddard's dissertation and he makes a comment that the "direct and inverse theme signs indicate the direction of the verbal rection along a parameter of what may be called distance." This goes from least distant (1st or second person) to most distant (inanimate subject). When the subject is less distant than the object, the direct form is used. When the subject is more distant than the participant, the inverse theme is used.

So I guess it seems like the kind of form to use when talking about other people far away, maybe.

I could always try to ask him in the future, of course, but I wondered if you had ever answered this question.

Offline

 

#190 May-22-2018 06:34:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4220
Website

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

johnb wrote:

No grammar question tonight, but I do have somewhat of a philosophical question so feel free to answer this without extensive comment or by just punting.

The TA Theme 2 form: Why does this form exist? Why have an inverse verb form where the object comes first?

I looked at a copy of Ives Goddard's dissertation and he makes a comment that the "direct and inverse theme signs indicate the direction of the verbal rection along a parameter of what may be called distance." This goes from least distant (1st or second person) to most distant (inanimate subject). When the subject is less distant than the object, the direct form is used. When the subject is more distant than the participant, the inverse theme is used.

So I guess it seems like the kind of form to use when talking about other people far away, maybe.

Well...  This is an example of the kind of language I specifically tried to keep out of my grammar.  Goddard's Delaware Verbal Morphology is the gold standard, but it almost requires formal training in linguistics; and, the great majority of people in my target audience were/are not academics.  I encourage you to use his grammar because you will be able to learn much and understand much, but I think you'll get more out of it after learning mine.  This said, by "distance," Goddard did not mean distance "in space."  It merely means that 1st and 2nd persons take precedence over 3rd persons "in speech."  That is, their pronoun affixes precede 3rd person pronoun affixes in TA Theme 2 verbs in speech.  In a verb like "ktaptonaluk" ('he speaks to you (sg.)"), "he" is NOT speaking to you from "far away"!  You will note, also, that TA Theme 1 verbs NEVER have 1st or 2nd person objects.  TA Theme 2 verbs NEVER have 1st or 2nd person subjects, so there is no other way to make 1st and 2nd persons objects of 3rd person subjects than by using TA Theme 2 verbs--no matter how near or far the subject and object are from each other.

Offline

 

#191 May-22-2018 10:51:pm

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

So interesting. And your comments partly explain why I still can't say "I understand you (sg.) well" smile but I can at least now conceive of some guesses about the relationships between subjects and objects in the remaining two themes.

I'm not going to pick Goddard's work up just yet. Back to the quiz.

Offline

 

#192 May-23-2018 01:02:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4220
Website

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

kolinennostol - "I understand you (sg.) well."

Offline

 

#193 May-24-2018 10:40:pm

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

My work for Quiz 11

I'm a bit shaky on some of the prefixes in the Independent Order and how the verb stem and underlying form of the Theme 2 sign actually appear in writing, but I'm mostly trying to get the multiple components to the conjugation right.

1. as he heals me

eli kikehit

2. we (incl.) will not be pierced (objective state)

atta tangamgewihennatsch

3. when she called her

enda wuntschimagukpanne

wentschimagukpanne

4. it brings me

mbschugun

5. they are not called

atta wuntschimguwiwak

6. They (anim.) wanted to bring you (pl.)

gotta k-peschukgunapannil

7. she who takes them

naatengukil

8. they fetch her

naalukgol

9. if it abides in you (pl.)

achipitaquonne

10. she was not called (absolute state)

atta wuntishimeekguwip

11. Why does it heal us (excl.)?

Quatsch kikehquenk?

12. they fetched you (pl.)

knaalukgopannik

13. when he has called you (pl.)

enda wuntischimaquequshanne

wentischimaquequshanne

14. you (sg.) are not pierced (objective state)

atta ktangamgewi

15. if they have abided in them

achpitaquchtitshanne

16. he fetches us (incl.)

knaalukguna

17. they who take you (sg.)

naatenquon

18. we (excl.) are called (absolute state)

nuntishimeekhummena

19. it won't bring them

atta peschuguwunewotsch

20. when they will call us (excl.)

enda wuntishimaquenketsch

wentishimaquenketsch

21. I was pierced (objective state)

ndangamgehump

22. if it did not abide in us (incl.)

achpitaguwonkpanne

atta achpitaquonkpanne

23. you (sg.) who are called

wentishimukgejann

24. as they heal them

eli kikehquechtit

25. What letter signifies the Transitive Animate Theme 2 "Theme Sign"?

The letter “k", which can sometimes appear as "c," "g" or "q". The theme sign comes directly after the verb stem (position 1). There is an exception to this rule for 1st person singular forms in the Conjunct Order.

Offline

 

#194 May-24-2018 10:52:pm

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

Whoops. That would be work for Quiz 10...

Offline

 

#195 May-25-2018 12:13:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4220
Website

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

Despite all my comments, below, you did pretty good on this.  I know this is difficult and I was not as helpful as I could have been when I did these lessons.  But, we learn over time.  I think a big help for you would be to start reading narrative texts to see how these verbs are used and what their surface forms look like.  Of course, one time through the lessons is really not enough.  I think I read Goddard's grammar fifty times (without exaggeration) before it sunk in.  (Well, most of it, at any rate.)  And, reading texts with actual sentences was a great help.  Anyway:

1. as he heals me

eli kikehit

2. we (incl.) will not be pierced (objective state)

atta tangamgewihennatsch   [should be atta ktangamgewihennatsch]

3. when she called her

enda wuntschimagukpanne   [should be enda wuntschimgukpanne]

wentschimagukpanne   [should be wentschimgukpanne]

4. it brings me

mbschugun   [typo - should be mbeschugun]

5. they are not called

atta wuntschimguwiwak

6. They (anim.) wanted to bring you (pl.)

gotta k-peschukgunapannil  [should be gatta peschukgunapannik – the preverb takes the 2nd pers. pronoun k- which merges with the g- (i.e, k-).  2nd persons are not obviative, so the ending is -ik instead of -il]

7. she who takes them

naatengukil   [should be naatenukgukil (obviative subject), or also naatenat (proximate subject) – I see I need to give more examples in the lessons.]

8. they fetch her

naalukgol   [wunalukgol (obviative subject - TA2) or wunalawawall (proximate subject - TA1)]

9. if it abides in you (pl.)

achipitaquonne

10. she was not called (absolute state)

atta wuntishimeekguwip  [typo – plus, should be atta wuntschimgewip.  This question was worded wrong, anyway.  It should NOT have read “(absolute state)," since all indefinite subject verbs are in the objective state; and, the examples in Lesson 5, Part 2 are wrong.  I posited theoretical absolute state forms based on the absolute state forms for the six other persons in the TA2 verbs.  More hyper-correcting (“overthinking") on my part.  On rare occasions, even fluent speakers do this—especially when calling up infrequently used forms.  Sometimes, I think what we call grammatical “rules" would better be thought of as “norms."  This in no way gives us license to disregard these norms.  It’s just that we sometimes don’t employ perfect grammar.  I’m reminded of this little poem that Jim Rementer sent to me:

I lately lost a preposition
It hid, I thought, beneath my chair
And angrily I cried, "Perdition!
Up from out of in under there."
Correctness is my vade mecum,
And straggling phrases I abhor,
And yet I wondered, "What should he come
Up from out of in under for?"
      Morris Bishop in the New Yorker, 27th September, 1947.

At least, it makes me feel better when I screw up!  So, I set before you an impossible task!  I’ll correct those in the lesson.]


11. Why does it heal us (excl.)?

Quatsch kikehquenk?   [right idea, but kikehukquenk would be better]

12. they fetched you (pl.)

knaalukgopannik   [should be knalukguwapannik for "you (pl.)"]

13. when he has called you (pl.)

enda wuntischimaquequshanne  [a typo, but again close – better, it should be enda wuntschimqueekshanne]

wentischimaquequshanne  [another typo – better, it should be wentschimqueekshanne.  I see you’re using -qu- to show that voiceless w.  This is okay for yourself, but you’ll never find it spelled this way in the Moravian works.  You might see wentschimqueeq’shanne, though.]

14. you (sg.) are not pierced (objective state)

atta ktangamgewi

15. if they have abided in them

achpitaquchtitshanne   [achpitaquichtitshanne is better – again, I need to show more examples in the lessons]

16. he fetches us (incl.)

knaalukguna

17. they who take you (sg.)

naatenquon  [should be naatenukquon – full theme sign, here (-ukw-)]

18. we (excl.) are called (absolute state)

nuntishimeekhummena   [typo on the stem, again, but it doesn't matter, this being another impossible TA2 absolute state, indefinite person form.  (See #10, above.)  nuntschimgehhenna would be right, but it's not in the lessons.  ]

19. it won't bring them

atta peschuguwunewotsch   

20. when they will call us (excl.)

enda wuntishimaquenketsch   [more typos on this verb stem – should be enda wuntschimquenketsch]

wentishimaquenketsch   [should be wentschimquenketsch]

21. I was pierced (objective state)

ndangamgehump

22. if it did not abide in us (incl.)

achpitaguwonkpanne   [with atta, of course]

atta achpitaquonkpanne

23. you (sg.) who are called

wentishimukgejann   [typo – should be wentschimgejann  -  your form is an underlying form, but the surface form gets contracted, as shown.  As I said above, more examples should be put in the lessons.  Still, if you were reading a text and saw wentchimgejann, you would know what it means, for sure.]

24. as they heal them

eli kikehquechtit   [should be eli kikehukquechtit – the full theme sign shows, again]

25. What letter signifies the Transitive Animate Theme 2 "Theme Sign"?

The letter “k", which can sometimes appear as "c," "g" or "q". The theme sign comes directly after the verb stem (position 1). There is an exception to this rule for 1st person singular forms in the Conjunct Order.

Offline

 

#196 May-25-2018 09:54:pm

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

Thanks for such detailed comments and corrections this time. Yeah, you've got a pretty good sense of where I'm at currently with my learning process. I can identify the right set of orders and modes to use. I'll definitely miss some suffixes in conjugations because I'm trying to keep so many straight. But generally, my suffixes and the sequence of them in a conjugation will be ok.

Where the verb stem ends and the various surface forms of the underlying forms are two places where I am completely blind.

"wuntschiman" is a good example for the stem.

"wuntischm-" I had it correct with 5 but incorrect in lots of other.

5. they are not called

atta wuntschimguwiwak

With the prefixes, I'm mostly blind even when I refer back to Lesson 2. I lean so heavily on the examples in the lessons for the surface forms even as I intuitively recognize that they will change for different verbs. But I don't try to guess how they change.

I haven't looked at any texts yet. My hope had been to go through all of the lessons so I could see all of the verb forms and then try to take some short passages. I was and am still nervous about reading some random selection of text if there are verb forms in Lessons 11 and 12 that I'm not yet ready to puzzle over - even if I have the English translation to help me. In a standard textbook, I wouldn't have that fear, of course. I would know in advance the passages are only showing verb forms I've seen already.

So the bottom line is this: Do you have any advice for how I should approach Lesson 11 or 12? Should just go through, do the quizzes and then move to some texts as in my original plan? If I do, I'm probably going to produce the same kinds of quizzes that I've done so far - which may be fine as a first cut. Clearly, I would have to repeat lessons. Or should I try to incorporate a written passage to help? Read Goddard's sections that pertain to Lesson 11?

Offline

 

#197 May-25-2018 10:16:pm

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

all indefinite subject verbs are in the objective state; and, the examples in Lesson 5, Part 2 are wrong.  I posited theoretical absolute state forms based on the absolute state forms for the six other persons in the TA2 verbs.

PS - I think you mean Lesson 10, Part 5 since Lesson 5 doesn't have a Part 2? Either way, should I put a big note at the top of my notes for that lesson that reads: "Update: These conjugations do not exist, because all indefinite subjects are in the objective state."

Offline

 

#198 May-26-2018 12:09:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4220
Website

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

Read the final lessons if you're more comfortable with that.  Reading Goddard is always helpful, though bearing in mind that Northern Unami does have some forms peculiar to itself.

Yes.  Lesson 10, Part 5.  Disregard it.  I intend to eliminate it.

Offline

 

#199 May-26-2018 10:08:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4220
Website

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

Okay.  Lesson 10, Part 5 has been removed.  Parts 6, 7 and 8 have been re-numbered as Parts 5, 6 and 7.  In addition, a note after the first paragraph of Lesson 10, Part 3, now states this:  "[Note:  3rd person passives are expressed by the indefinite person forms of the Theme 1 verbs.  Example:  “wentschiminde" (‘when he is called’ or ‘when they are called’).]"

Offline

 

#200 May-26-2018 11:16:pm

johnb
Visitor
Registered: Mar-30-2018
Posts: 94

Re: Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

Ok. I'll try reading Goddard along with lessons 11 and 12. Thanks.

Offline

 
  • Index
  •  » Language
  •  » Delaware (Northern Unami) Language Lessons

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
© Copyright 2002–2005 Rickard Andersson