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#26 Dec-07-2011 02:54:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11054

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

neutral

tn_metis wrote:

i've looked at the review of mt's book on here regarding his statements about the reservation system, or lack thereof as the case may be,  and i have to say that he is quite correct in his comments.......the reservation system is a federal system and did not exist until the 1860's - 1862 i believe - when gen. carlson, commanding general of the dept of new mexico, originated the concept and requested from pres. lincoln authority to initiate the program as an experiment.....gen. carlson recommended the navajo and chiricahua as the first nations to be placed on these reservations........he received the appropriate authorization and launched his initial campaign against the navajo, which resulted in what we know as the bosque redondo...............
prior to this, indian land affairs were a state issue, and the states did not create a true reservation system........the states did by treaty, set aside boundaried areas for the habitation of the indians, but offered no regulatory, administrative, or police type protections to these areas....these areas were often encroached on by settlers, resulting in conflicts - mostly legal in which the indians invariably lost - and movement of these boundaried areas from place to place -------the whipple report of 1888/89 discusses this problem fairly well, as do a number of other governmental report of that era...........it was not until after 1888/89 that these areas eventually became a part of the federal reservation system......in fact a 1943 report to the nys legislature raised the question of whether state authority or federal authority over these areas - at least in new york - should take precedence.......if these areas were in fact a part of the federal reservation system that questiion would not have existed, nor would nys have any need or authority to initiate the report in questiion......a reservation is legally defined as "an area of land managed by an american indian tribe under the united states department of interior's bureau of indian affairs"  since these state parcels were not under the doi-bia, they did not meet the legal defintion of a reservation....as such mt was absolutely correct in his statements, albeit he could have gone into more detail or explanation to alleviate any possible confusion............
well i'm on the subject of mt's book............he stated that moravian missions existed in new york state until the early 1900's - again he is correct except that he failed to update his terminology.......the moravians had by that time become known as the episcopal church and the episcopal church did in fact administer government owned residential schools well into the 1900's as did the jesuits, quakers, and others.........a part of the contracts between the government and the various sects that administered the schools, was to allow the sect to propolgate their particular beliefs as a part of the required cirriculum......this contractual relationship between the government and the religious sects is explained in mcColl's report on residential industrial schools of 1879, and is substantiated by the whipple report and other governmental reports from the late 1800's and early - mid 1900's.............since these school's were administered by a religious sect who enforced their particular beliefs it's easy to see how they could be called missions........i don't think mt made a mistake of fact, merely a possible mistake in title.........[the thomas school was a bit different in that it taught both catholic and protestant classes - one or the other being mandatory on the students]

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#27 Dec-07-2011 04:08:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
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Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

MT:

If your contorted attempt to make what you wrote somehow "correct" convinces anybody that you were right, then, I think Ray Whritenour would be astonished!   neutral

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#28 Dec-09-2011 01:36:pm

tn_metis
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Registered: Sep-22-2011
Posts: 20

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

what i wrote????.............................and i don't believe that examining mt's writings from an OBJECTIVE point of view is contorted in any way what so ever.............in reviewing mt's writings, as given in mr. whritenour's review of his work, i relied on historical government documents to determine if he had his facts right or not [and i notated some of the documents i reviewed]..........his facts were correct....his mistake was in using improper terminology, and insufficient explanations, which could lead to confusion and misunderstanding, which i also stated in my comments...........

if mr. whritenour is astonished by documented historical fact...........well......what can i say??


odell

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#29 Dec-10-2011 12:36:am

Suckachsinheet
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Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 968

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

tn_metis wrote:

well i'm on the subject of mt's book............he stated that moravian missions existed in new york state until the early 1900's - again he is correct except that he failed to update his terminology.......the moravians had by that time become known as the episcopal church and the episcopal church did in fact administer government owned residential schools well into the 1900's as did the jesuits, quakers, and others...

The Moravians never became the Episcopal church! They still exist as a denomination, with their own website and everything. The Episcopal church is the American version of the Anglican church (Church of England).


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#30 Dec-11-2011 03:42:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11054

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

tn_metis wrote:

what i wrote????.............................and i don't believe that examining mt's writings from an OBJECTIVE point of view is contorted in any way what so ever.............in reviewing mt's writings, as given in mr. whritenour's review of his work, i relied on historical government documents to determine if he had his facts right or not [and i notated some of the documents i reviewed]..........his facts were correct....his mistake was in using improper terminology, and insufficient explanations, which could lead to confusion and misunderstanding, which i also stated in my comments...........

if mr. whritenour is astonished by documented historical fact...........well......what can i say??


odell

Cough..

'Odell' you must truly be on a mission to get your so called work out there and believed. I see what you're doing, and frankly it's coming off a little insane.

I am not going to take the time (right now anyway) to pick apart your inconsistencies and outright lies, but do you really think we believe this alter ego thing? Personally I find it amusing, but for our many readers that come here for FACTUAL information..I feel I need to clear the air.

Two accounts made by you. Note: I have edited out the full email extension but have it and stats on record.
First one under  tnmetis- email address "messochwenteme@----.com. You registered that account on September 16. Then I guess you figured it was bad to have your real email address on here, to play the game.

So on Sept 22 you register under tn_metis through rdavis4920@----.com. Same computer, same ip address.

You really need to get more creative. All technical things aside, you've showed your stupidity through posts. When and if I am bored enough I will go through them, and make sure it's all in a nice clean thread. That way all these contacts you are trying to convince of your superiority can see you for who you are.

Have a nice night, and thanks for the memories. roll

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#31 Dec-29-2013 10:53:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4299
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Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

It seems we now have an answer to this that I wrote in the review of Messochwen Teme's book, above in Message #1:

"184-210 contain what he calls "the Twelve Laws." On page 221, he tells us that these 12 Laws were given to the Lenape "by Nanpush after he created the new world." Each law has a pictographic representation. Where these came from is not stated; but, they're certainly NOT Lenape. These 12 Laws are either borrowed from some other tribe, or invented by someone, recently."

Here's what Tree Beard has to say about these "twelve laws" at his website:

"ABOUT THE TWELVE LAWS / TEACHINGS FROM THE EARTH:

"These Teachings were written down in 2000 by I, Hitakonanulaxk/ Tree Beard; under copyright. You have my permission to use these freely, but not to include in any publication or to make money from their printing. They are the words of Wise Elders who have now passed on, and I put them together under twelve headings with symbols of each.

"I have been told that one, who calls himself Messochwenteme ,has used them in a self-published book "The Lenape: their History & Culture", and therein he calls them "the Teachings of Nanapush". I can assure you, these have nothing to do with NANAPUSH, and were put together by myself in the year 2000."

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#32 Dec-29-2013 01:11:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11054

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

neutral Uhh neutral

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#33 Dec-29-2013 01:32:pm

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

lol Missed this one! What would we do without you Ray???lol and what the hell is a "Tennessee Metis"????? yikes


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
---------------------------------------------------
      Warning:  Some Profanity
This might cause you to experience reason

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#34 May-27-2017 12:30:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4299
Website

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

tn_metis wrote:

as far as mr. writenour goes...........my intent was NOT to discredit him, but rather to point out that, despite his own opinion of himself, that he does not know everything about everything, and that just maybe there are others in the world that know as much or more than he...........

odell

From: John Strong [mailto:jstrong1@optonline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 9:05 PM
To: Goddard, Ives
Subject: Ray Whritenour

Dear Ives,

I recently ran across a reference to a Lenape linguist named Ray Whritenour who wrote a book in 1995 entitled Delaware-English Lexicon of Words and Phrases. Can you tell me more about him? How reliable is his work?

Thanks,
John A. Strong 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re:  Ray Whritenour
From:    Goddard, Ives (GODDARDI@si.edu)
Sent:    Thu 10/13/11 9:38 AM
To:     'John Strong' (jstrong1@optonline.net)

Hi John,

Ray Whritenour (raytn’r) is an avocational scholar who knows more about the Delaware language legacy of the Moravians than anyone. His 1995 book is a very useful index to Zeisberger’s dictionary which I keep on a shelf beside me and refer to frequently. He is currently transcribing some of the extensive linguistic materials of the Moravians that remain in manuscript.

Ives

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