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#1 Jan-03-2009 09:07:pm

Suckachsinheet
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Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 968

Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Could someone (perhaps lenape) tell me the real story of Sam and the United Lenape Band? I'm pretty sure my understanding of that group is rather tainted by the stories I have heard from LS, Billy Blue Feather, Tom Big Warrior, JoAnn Learn, and others. I'd just like to get the story straight for once. It is so integral to the background of so many claimant groups.

Some questions I would like answers for are:

Where did Sam come from?
What was he trying to accomplish?
When did the group start?
Did the in-fighting and dissension start before he died, or immediately afterward?


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#2 Jan-03-2009 09:51:pm

NanticokePiney
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From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Suckachsinheet wrote:

that group is rather tainted by the stories I have heard from LS, Billy Blue Feather, Tom Big Warrior,  and others.

yikesWHOA! What haven't those people tainted.......

Blacksmith poses a really good question. I'm also interested. smile


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#3 Jan-03-2009 10:18:pm

lenape
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Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

I have decided to respond via a PM on this as many claim to know him, some even claim to have been "appointed" by him, and much of what will answer your questions is *in my opinion* not public information, for the main reason that it helps to sort out who actually knew him and who is just hanging on, it was brought to my attention just the other day that Sams name appeared on a enrollment card that was recently issued, which is interesting because he is shacked up with Elvis somewhere on a secluded island somewhere that is impossible!  A "rubber stamp" was made of his signature and is being passed around a certain group to give "validity" or "status" (LOL) that they actually knew him or was "made" something by him,
  I will state this much, contrary to what some think Sam was a real, living person(some have actually claimed he was not), He was Native American; Cayuga and Oklahoma Delaware, a veteran of World War 2, Korea, Wounded Knee II, and the "Mohawk Conflict", and in my eyes an Elder.  Yes he did some "Stupid" stuff, got involved with some goofballs, and made mistakes, as have many Elders, I don't agree with all he did, but who am *I*?  I still respected him and still respect his goals!

Piney, I will also send you a copy of the PM, and whom ever else is interested....

Edit: Sam was a vet of ww2 and Korea, NOT Vietnam, my error!!!roll

Last edited by lenape (Jan-03-2009 10:32:pm)

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#4 Jan-04-2009 09:32:am

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11096

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Would you pm me also, please?

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#5 Jan-04-2009 11:04:am

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11096

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Wow. Thank you!

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#6 Jan-04-2009 04:40:pm

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

tree hugger wrote:

Wow. Thank you!

HU! Anishii!   big_smile


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
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#7 Jan-04-2009 04:49:pm

lenape
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Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

You guys are welcome, if I get a chance I will scan and post the article from "The Spirit of Geronimo Returns" that speak of in the PM.

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#8 Jan-09-2009 02:59:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
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Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Does anybody here know who his parents were?

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#9 Jan-09-2009 03:31:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11096

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

sschkaak wrote:

Does anybody here know who his parents were?

Good question. Maybe lenape knows?

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#10 Jan-09-2009 03:34:pm

lenape
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Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Not off hand, I can look back through some of the stuff I have, I am not sure if I have anything from them.  His father is buried in Miami, Ok, thought his mother was in NY, but I do not remember for sure....

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#11 Jan-09-2009 04:40:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Disregard.  I found them.

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#12 Jan-09-2009 06:44:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Okay.  Here's the problem.  How does one reconcile the testimony of two separate vital records? 

On Sam Hannah's Ohio death record, it says he died at 71 years of age in 1996, his race was "Native American" and that he was born in "Oklahoma."  It gives his mother's surname as "Bybee."  However, on the 1930 federal census of Ohio, Samuel Hannah, Jr., 5 years old, is listed as "white" and as being born in "Kentucky."  He and his mother, "Ethel Hannah," were living in the household of Sam's grandfather, "David Bybee."  The whole family was born in "Kentucky," and Sam's father is listed as being born in "Kentucky," too. 

This is a major hurdle to overcome, if one is to believe Sam Hannah was who he said he was.  I'm not saying it can't, but I can't see how.

(Be glad to furnish copies of these records to anyone interested.)

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#13 Jan-09-2009 11:00:pm

lenape
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Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

sschkaak wrote:

Okay.  Here's the problem.  How does one reconcile the testimony of two separate vital records? 

On Sam Hannah's Ohio death record, it says he died at 71 years of age in 1996, his race was "Native American" and that he was born in "Oklahoma."  It gives his mother's surname as "Bybee."  However, on the 1930 federal census of Ohio, Samuel Hannah, Jr., 5 years old, is listed as "white" and as being born in "Kentucky."  He and his mother, "Ethel Hannah," were living in the household of Sam's grandfather, "David Bybee."  The whole family was born in "Kentucky," and Sam's father is listed as being born in "Kentucky," too. 

This is a major hurdle to overcome, if one is to believe Sam Hannah was who he said he was.  I'm not saying it can't, but I can't see how.

(Be glad to furnish copies of these records to anyone interested.)

That is interesting, would not venture to guess how this came about, I can only go on his word and the words of those who knew him and what they said, one of which being Nora, who knew him when he was in OK, another is a Creek friend who knew both of them and even lived next door to Sam as a child, in Oklahoma.  Others as well "claim" to have known him while he was living there.  As to being listed as white, anyone who actually knew him knew he was not "white", no was he seen as such among the Native Communities, and organizations that he was associated with.  I know that Sam lived in Kentucky shortly after he left our farm, in the 70's.  As I said, I don't have an answer regarding these documents, nor do I doubt what you say Sschkaak, just can say what I know of him, who he was affiliated with and how he was seen, and like many other "political" figures in the Native Communities, some loved him and some hated him, others yet swear he never existed.  My thoughts on those why did no one question him before he died, he was in the "spotlight" from the 1940's on with Native political issues and his community was not "hidden", he was well accepted in OK when out there, as well up in NY/Canada when there. 
Just my 2 cents, i don't mean to offend anyone...

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#14 Jan-09-2009 11:32:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Just trying to get to the truth.  No offence taken.  I guess we'll have to wait until the 1940 census is made public, in 2012, in order to see where he was living when he was 15, and if there is any additional information.  That he was born in Jefferson County, Kentucky, is certain, though.  An index entry of his birth record is also available online.

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#15 Jan-10-2009 09:41:am

bls926
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From: Texas
Registered: Oct-21-2006
Posts: 12082

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

I didn't know Sam Hannah, so I don't have any facts to share. I do have some thoughts on censuses and birth/death certificates.

However, on the 1930 federal census of Ohio, Samuel Hannah, Jr., 5 years old, is listed as "white" and as being born in "Kentucky."  He and his mother, "Ethel Hannah," were living in the household of Sam's grandfather, "David Bybee."

We're talking about the 1930 census. If given a choice, or able to pass, most people probably did choose "white" as a race, especially if they were living as white. It was a different time.


On Sam Hannah's Ohio death record, it says he died at 71 years of age in 1996, his race was "Native American" and that he was born in "Oklahoma."  It gives his mother's surname as "Bybee."

Your mother's maiden name is listed on your birth/death certificate. By 1996 things had changed; being Indian wasn't something you needed to hide or be ashamed of.


Just some thoughts that might help to explain the discrepancies. Can't help you with the Kentucky/Oklahoma thing though. It could be something as simple as a mistake.

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#16 Jan-10-2009 01:35:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11096

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Just some thoughts that might help to explain the discrepancies. Can't help you with the Kentucky/Oklahoma thing though. It could be something as simple as a mistake.

Mistake how? I'm just confused.

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#17 Jan-10-2009 03:55:pm

bls926
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From: Texas
Registered: Oct-21-2006
Posts: 12082

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Either the 1930 census listed his birthplace incorrectly or the death certificate did.

Good possibility that if Sam and his mother were living with her parents, and they all had been born in Kentucky, the census takers might have assumed Sam was born there as well. Wonder where Sam's dad was in 1930? No mention of him?

And then, maybe he was born in Kentucky and his death certificate is wrong.

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#18 Jan-10-2009 04:39:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11096

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Thanks, wasn't sure what you meant.

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#19 Jan-10-2009 05:35:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
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Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

You must have missed the post (above) where I said his birth record says he was born in "Jefferson County, Kentucky"--corroborating the 1930 census information.  The misinformation is on his death record.  No, Sam's father was not listed in the household, though his mother was listed as "married," not "widowed" or "divorced."  His death record lists his father's surname as "Martin."  This must have been his stepfather, since he is named "Samuel Hannah, Jr." in the census.  I have yet to find an "Indian" Bybee or Hannah in the Ohio or Kentucky censuses.  The 1930 Ohio census listed 430 people as "Indians."

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#20 Jan-10-2009 08:47:pm

bls926
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From: Texas
Registered: Oct-21-2006
Posts: 12082

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

That he was born in Jefferson County, Kentucky, is certain, though.  An index entry of his birth record is also available online.

Yeah, I guess I did miss this. Sorry.


The whole family was born in "Kentucky," and Sam's father is listed as being born in "Kentucky," too.

Another thing I missed and this from the first post. This says Sam's father is listed in the 1930 census as being born in Kentucky.


From your recent post:

No, Sam's father was not listed in the household, though his mother was listed as "married," not "widowed" or "divorced."

His name isn't given, but his birth place is? If he isn't living in the household, wonder why he's mentioned at all. Now I'm confused.

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#21 Jan-10-2009 08:50:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
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Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Every federal census from 1880 on gives the birthplace of the parents of everyone enumerated.  So, the birthplace of Sam's father is listed.  His name was almost certainly, "Samuel Hannah," since Sam was listed as "Samuel Hannah, Junior."

Last edited by sschkaak (Jan-10-2009 08:51:pm)

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#22 Jan-10-2009 09:21:pm

bls926
Administrator
From: Texas
Registered: Oct-21-2006
Posts: 12082

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

I didn't know that. Learned something new today. Following that line of thought, the birthplace of his grandparents' parents would also be listed. We could learn where his maternal great-grandparents were from.

Wonder if Samuel Hannah, Sr is listed anywhere in the 1930 census. And where his parents are from.

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#23 Jan-10-2009 09:31:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
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Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Everyone in the household of David Bybee (himself, his wife, his two daughters, and his grandson (Sam Hannah, Jr.), and ALL their parents were listed as being born in "Kentucky."  (People in the family next-door were born in "Ohio.")   There are some "Samuel Hannahs" and "Sam Hannas", etc. listed, but figuring out which one of them (if any) is the father would require more than census documents.

Last edited by sschkaak (May-13-2012 12:51:pm)

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#24 Jan-11-2009 09:49:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
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Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

Anyone who has done genealogical research (as I have for over twenty years, now) knows that there will be mistakes on public records.  I have hundreds of such records, and I'd say about 10% of them show some kind of error.  HOWEVER, 90% do not.  You never rely on one record, if that's at all possible.  As shown, in this instance, Sam Hannah was born in Kentucky, by the testimony of two separate records (including the birth record made at the time he was actually born!).  His death record is wrong.  He was NOT born in Oklahoma.  One has to ask, how many "Oklahoma Delawares" were living around Louisville, KY, in 1924?  It's clear, from previous census records, that Sam's mother's family had been living in Kentucky for several generations; and that they were always listed as "white."  The whole claim rests on who, exactly, Sam's father was.  The only Sam Hannahs found in this area are "white," and born in "Kentucky."  That doesn't mean his father was any of these people, or, that any of these people weren't really part Indian.  But, the absence of any census documents supporting his claim cannot be used to prove his claim!  If that were so, then, maybe, Ward Churchill is a Cherokee!

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#25 Jan-11-2009 10:59:am

lenape
Member
Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: Sam Grey Wolf Hanna

(scatches head...) I know little or nothing about researching this stuff so I can only rely on Sschkaak' s word as being accurate, as it seems to be, how ever what makes me wonder is why would folks who did not associate with him, much less like him(as was the case with NTD) make this claim also, that is confusing to me, despite what the records say, his mother was infact Indian, or there was a lot of tanning booths and hair dye going on back then, LOL.  I also find it interesting that when he was in Oklahoma he could "live out this lie" of being born and raised there, anyone who has spent any time out there knows that that just doesn't happen, especially among the Native population, as well as a "traditional community", there are just too many folks who knew him to make me understand...

  On another note I spent some time looking through census records last night, about 4-5 hours, they are a joke.  While I have no interest in posting my families info here, LOL, according to the records my great grand mother was born in Oklahoma, LOL, that is a few hundred miles off!  There were other "minor" mistakes, the other side of my family doesn't exist in the records.

  Sschkaak, thank you for the information, and the explanations, as with out them this doesn't sink in with me, LOL!

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