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#26 Dec-12-2016 02:56:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

It's good that you've mastered that orthography.  Blanchard had a couple smaller works printed in that spelling.  Also, there is an old Delaware hymn book which used it.

P.S. - I'd be curious to see some of those words which don't look right, to you.  Maybe, I can figure them out.

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#27 Dec-12-2016 02:59:pm

Maxkwtet
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Registered: Sep-28-2010
Posts: 19

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Im digging all the usage of words like pilsitch, okch... ya if that glitch didn't come up figuring out the best way to transliterate i could've started much sooner. but then i moved a couple times, had a baby, graduated 2 grad school programs, learned to remodel 1 home and now remodeling another.... but i will always make sure to circle back to items dear on my list when life permits it.

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#28 Dec-12-2016 03:06:pm

Maxkwtet
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Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Here's one example from Elatchimwink II.

"uneaol"

I know i saw more but just glanced quickly. but then to see alëmi pop up as a direct transliteration is pretty neat.

Well if there are other books, I've already learned this thing wink

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#29 Dec-12-2016 03:07:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
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Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

You've been busy!  Of course, okch and pilsitch are just "and-will" and "he-who-is-pure-will."  (For those unfamiliar with them, the -ch is simply the future marker, which can be added onto any part-of-speech--here, a particle and a participle.)  I assume these aren't the ones with which you were having trouble.

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#30 Dec-12-2016 03:14:pm

sschkaak
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Posts: 4453

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Maxkwtet wrote:

Here's one example from Elatchimwink II.

"uneaol"

I know i saw more but just glanced quickly. but then to see alëmi pop up as a direct transliteration is pretty neat.

Well if there are other books, I've already learned this thing wink

This is "he-sees-him" = wëneyaool.  In Northern Unami, this would be wunewawall.  (The subject can be "he" or "she."  The object is an obviative suffix which can mean "him," "her" or "them."  This is an old SU form.  Now, it would be wëneyaoo.  Does this make sense in the context in which it appears?

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#31 Dec-12-2016 03:18:pm

Maxkwtet
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Posts: 19

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Nope! Those were the ones I really liked seeing over and over. Those are more of the funner parts of grammar i love to learn. I rather oddly have a weird talent for breaking words apart to figure meaning and grammar, for words i've never seen before. like people have thrown words at me knowing i'd figure them out like a game.

in fact another project that is personal is breaking apart every lenape word i learn and recording them in a file i keep. because it makes me nuts to be told word A means B but i can clearly see there are 2 or 3 parts in the word and the meaning of each part actually tells me more about the word than just accepting the suggested meaning on faith. In my opinion i dont see how anyone can learn a language fluently without knowing all those parts upfront or there's no way to think!

Anyway, here's one of the odd ball words = "uneaol"

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#32 Dec-12-2016 03:24:pm

Maxkwtet
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Posts: 19

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

you picked right up on that right away! i haven't given much thought yet about to anything but the easy words for me as i'm just in the mindless transliteration stage and haven't looked back and analysized much yet. im not sure i would have ever come up with this one though. yes, it does make sense in context. perfect!

so this is related to that then with a different conjugation:  uneoiuol

i must say i really like the modern system much more smile although that is what i am used to.

maybe it's weird i will keep working along but that's what i do, along with herbalism.

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#33 Dec-12-2016 03:29:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Maxkwtet wrote:

Nope! Those were the ones I really liked seeing over and over. Those are more of the funner parts of grammar i love to learn. I rather oddly have a weird talent for breaking words apart to figure meaning and grammar, for words i've never seen before. like people have thrown words at me knowing i'd figure them out like a game.

in fact another project that is personal is breaking apart every lenape word i learn and recording them in a file i keep. because it makes me nuts to be told word A means B but i can clearly see there are 2 or 3 parts in the word and the meaning of each part actually tells me more about the word than just accepting the suggested meaning on faith. In my opinion i dont see how anyone can learn a language fluently without knowing all those parts upfront or there's no way to think!

Well...  What you're doing is finding the etymology of words.  Sometimes, the etymology and the meaning are exactly the same--but, not always.  For instance, the English word, "bridge," is, etymologically, "log."  But, we wouldn't call the George Washington Bridge the George Washington Log!  The etymology of "fox" is "bushy," but we don't call a fox "a bushy."  In other words, people are not always thinking of the etymology of a word when they use it.  This is true in Lenape, too--though, Lenape meanings are often closer to their etymological structure than are some other languages.

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#34 Dec-12-2016 03:36:pm

sschkaak
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Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Maxkwtet wrote:

so this is related to that then with a different conjugation:  uneoiuol

I'd have to see the context, but this looks like "he did not see them" (or something along those lines).  Probably used after a negative particle (ata; mata; taku; etc.).

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#35 Dec-12-2016 03:36:pm

Maxkwtet
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Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

yes! languages have always been a hobby. so many times i just look at a word in german or another language and it automatically explains the english word to me because german constructs their words using parts that make sense to everyone that speaks that language. Lenape does the same. English is a very different animal being a language with a majority of loan words form various languages.

Well dont mean to bore. Putting my nose back into my books.

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#36 Dec-12-2016 03:38:pm

Maxkwtet
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Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Here's the full sentence that came from:  Taku hishi awen uneoiuel Kishelemuetchi ne shikensh tlei mawsin wekwisink, wtulhyilit oxel tepin teli watelukunenap.

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#37 Dec-12-2016 03:52:pm

Maxkwtet
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Posts: 19

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Oops, to be clear, that is a direct transliteration. Then mapping that to the modern system would be the following step.

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#38 Dec-12-2016 03:53:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Maxkwtet wrote:

Here's the full sentence that came from:  Taku hishi awen uneoiuel Kishelemuetchi ne shikensh tlei mawsin wekwisink, wtulhyilit oxel tepin teli watelukunenap.

Yes.  The negative particle (taku) precedes it.  This is John 1: 18.  "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known."

Literally, "Not ever a-person he-has-not-seen-him the-Creator that-one wholly in is-one the-Son, his-breast his-Father he-is-there him-thus He-makes-him-known."

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#39 Dec-12-2016 04:21:pm

Maxkwtet
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Registered: Sep-28-2010
Posts: 19

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

wonderful! no question it would take me much longer to work thru that. thank you so much

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#40 Dec-12-2016 04:26:pm

Maxkwtet
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Registered: Sep-28-2010
Posts: 19

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Another thing i notice that is interesting. This book does use both hakink and hokink as stand alone words. As far as I know they are the same. So why the change? Is each case affected by surrounding words? Personal preference? ...

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#41 Dec-12-2016 04:30:pm

sschkaak
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Posts: 4453

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Let me caution you about one thing.  Many people in the mid U.S. have trouble distinguishing between the Lenape short a (pronounced like the u in the word mud) and the schwa [ë] (pronounced like the a in the word sofa).  Blanchard was no exception.  So, you always have to check the words with these letters, in Blanchard, with those in the Lenape Talking Dictionary, in order to see which vowel is correct.  In your sentence, for example, the schwas I have underlined and put in bold type should really be short a:

Taku hishi awen uneoiuël Kishelëmuetchi në shikënsh tlëi mawsin wekwisink, wtulhyilit oxël tëpin tëli watëlukunenap.

This is probably true for tlëi, also, but I'm not sure about that word.

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#42 Dec-12-2016 04:35:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Maxkwtet wrote:

Another thing i notice that is interesting. This book does use both hakink and hokink as stand alone words. As far as I know they are the same. So why the change? Is each case affected by surrounding words? Personal preference? ...

hakink = "in-the-land" /  hokink = "in-his-land" (I think.)  I'm not as sure about SU as I am NU.  I'd have to see the context, again.

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#43 Dec-12-2016 05:07:pm

Maxkwtet
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Registered: Sep-28-2010
Posts: 19

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

i understand. i was going to check any words i dont know to talking lenape. i would want to show the direct transliteration. then the update to how it stands in talking lenape. i think the comparison and anlysis btw the 2 are interesting to see. like how they say 'luensu' but we would say luwensu. i'm looking at a case of 'luensuch' right now; love those added particles smile

I keep wanting to correct words like ëntë but am purposely maintaining the way he says it is spelled for historical interest. So then I would show the modern spelling next in line on paper. Then the translation. I guess this will just be a weird file buried in my cloud that only i will have since that book is coming out hmm i am glad this information has been liberated though for many many more eyes. 

another word i notice changes along the way in this book is xkwe sometimes transliterates to xkwë or ukwë; so x versus b in his system. in my method, ë because that is how the letter he uses most usually transliterates knowing other words his letter occurs in. so i meerly maintain that pattern of his system of writing. 1st transliteration then translation and really it would be a translation between his transliterated writing and into modern unami spelling, isnt it? that is a twisty concept to scare most ppl!

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#44 Dec-12-2016 05:13:pm

Maxkwtet
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Registered: Sep-28-2010
Posts: 19

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

oh! that actually makes a lot of sense regarding hokink! nhakink comes up several times too, which i took for my-land but not necessarily how we'd spell it today. wow, i hope i can learn the language much better.

Hokink and hakink occur in several separate cases in different places. So i would be compelled to assemble all those sentences for a better review for analysis. a more proper assembly. can you tell i geek out on this stuff?

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#45 Dec-12-2016 05:18:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

"can you tell i geek out on this stuff?"

lol  Yes.  I love it!

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#46 Dec-12-2016 08:49:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Yikes!  The sequence of these posts really got out of the right order, since we were writing at the same time.  I hope everyone can figure it out!

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#47 Dec-14-2016 11:39:am

Maxkwtet
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Registered: Sep-28-2010
Posts: 19

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

You mentioned a couple other books that might need transliterating too? Are those online?

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#48 Dec-14-2016 11:55:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: The Gospel in Southern Unami

Maxkwtet wrote:

You mentioned a couple other books that might need transliterating too? Are those online?

If they are, I haven't seen them.  I have a digital copy of the hymnal which I can send you in an e-mail, if interested.  I have a hardcopy of one of the other works, which I could probably scan to my computer and then attach it to an e-mail (or several e-mails) and send it along.  Let me know if you want these.  I think there is one other small work which I do not have.

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