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#1 Aug-06-2010 02:51:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
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Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

For any who have doubts concerning this question:

"Lenape" (so spelled) entered English, as a carry-over from the German spelling, via the English writings of John Heckewelder, who clearly believed the term referred to Unami and Munsee people.  [Heckewelder, History, Manners, and Customs of the Indian Nations who once Inhabited Pennsylvania and the Neighbouring States, Philadelphia (1819), pp. 53 & 253, and throughout.]   

In 1755, the Susquehannah Co., of Connecticut, got a deed for upper Delaware River lands in PA and NY, signed by three chiefs of "the ancient tribe and nation of Indians called Ninneepauues otherwise and in English known by the name of the Delaware Indians..."  The primary signatory was Allamaaseeit, an Esopus Indian.  Another was Mackeus, a Minisink Indian.  "Ninneepauues" is almost certainly a Mahican interpreter's version of (or attempt to say) "Lenapes," since Mahican had no L-sound, but used an N-sound, instead.  [see Grumet, Robert S., "The Minisink Settlements:  Native American Identity and Society in the Munsee Heartland, 1650-1778," in Orr, David G. & Campana, Douglas V., eds., The People of Minisink:  Papers from the 1989 Delaware Water Gap Symposium, Philadelphia (1991), pp. 183-4, 200, 208, 217 & 233.]

"Mr. Anthony {Albert Seqaqkind Anthony, of Six Nations Reserve, Ontario-R.W.} assured me that it was perfectly familiar to the old Delawares,
and added that in his opinion their very name, Lenape, conveys an esoteric meaning, to wit, "the man comes," with reference to the second advent of their culture-hero."
  [Brinton, Daniel G., "Lenape Conversations," JOURNAL OF AMERICAN FOLK-LORE, Vol. 1, No. 1, 1889, page 38.]


"During the summer of 1907 I found the opportunity to visit the three bands of Delaware Indians, or as they call themselves, Lenape, now residing in Canada..."  [Harrington, M. R., "Vestiges of Material Culture among the Canadian Delawares," American Anthropologist (N.S.), Vol. 10, No. 3, July-September, 1908, page 408.]

"It appears that the Delawares of Six Nations Reserve formerly held what was known as a 'General Thanksgiving' ceremony called in Lenape Gitctla'kan, twice a year, once in the spring and again in the fall."  [Harrington, M. R., Religion and Ceremonies of the Lenape, New York (1921), page 139.]  Of course, the Six Nations Delaware were Munsee speakers.


"When the "Pale Face" first came to North America the Lenni Linnahpa Original People sustained life by agriculture as well as by hunting and fishing and by gathering of berries and nuts and many other natural foods."  [Hill, Jasper, "Agriculture, Hunting, Fishing," in The Wisconsin Archaeologist, Vol 14, new series (1934), page 21.]  (Jasper Hill - "Big White Owl" - was, of course, a Moraviantown Delaware, and Munsee speaker, here, writing about his people.)


"...in a recent communication Jesse Moses writes that he has heard that the white mask {in the Six Nations Delaware Big House-R.W.} represented the Great Spirit and the red one the 'Lenni-lenapah' whom he created (9/29/44)." [Speck, Frank G. & Moses, Jesse, THE CELESTIAL BEAR COMES DOWN TO EARTH, Reading, PA (1945), p.22, n.46.]


Here are some quotations from John Heckewelder's History, Manners, and Customs of the Indian Nations Who Once Inhabited Pennsylvania and the Neighbouring States, Philadelphia, 1819 (Rev. 1876); showing Munsees to be Lenape:


"The Minsi were considered the most warlike and active branch of the Lenape."   [p.52]

"The Lenni Lenape claim the honour of having received and welcomed the Europeans on their first arrival in the country, situated between New England and Virginia."(This is by way of introduction to an account of Henry Hudson's appearance at Manhattan {"York Island"}.)   [p.71 et seq.]

"It is not in my power to ascertain the whole number of the Lenni Lenape, or Delaware Indians, still existing at the present time.  As far as I am informed, they are very much scattered, a number of them, chiefly of the Monsey tribe, living in Upper Canada..."   [p.85]

"The last mentioned author {La Hontan - R.W.} subjoins a vocabulary of what he calls the Algonquin tongue, which bears a greater affinity to the language of the Unamis or Turtle tribe of the Lenape than that does to the idiom of the Monsey or Wolf tribe of the same nation."   [p.124]

"In the year 1742, a veteran warrior of the Lenape nation and Monsey tribe, ...joined the Christian Indians who then resided at this place" {Bethlehem, PA - R.W.}.   [p.206]

"Even the Minsi, a tribe of the Lenape or Delaware nation, have not all their numerals like those of the Unami tribe..."   [p.374]


Heckewelder was a missionary among the Delaware Indians from 1771-1786.  He was involved in Indian affairs, almost continuously, from 1762 until 1813.


David Zeisberger (1780):

"The name Delawares undoubtedly has its origin with the Europeans, for neither they themselves nor other nations use this name.  They call themselves the Lenni-Lenape Indians or Woapanachke..."

"The Delaware Nation, consisting of three tribes, the Unamis, Wunalachticos and Monsys, formerly lived in the region about Philadelphia, also in Jersey about Trenton, Brunswick and Amboy.  The Unamis are the chief people of the nation; their language, differing but little from that of the Wunalachtico, is the most melodious.  The Monsy tongue is quite different, even though the three grew out of one parent language.  The last named tribe lived in Minnissing along the Delaware, behind the Blue Mountains."

"The Six Nations who had betrayed the Delawares into a war with the white people, at the last fell upon them themselves at the instigation of Sir William Johnson, taking many captives, especially of the Monsy [Monsey] tribe, whom they delivered over to Johnson, destroying and ravaging their towns on the Susquehanna and killing their cattle.  The Delawares will not easily forget this piece of treachery and there is and remains a national hostility between these nations."
 
["David Zeisberger's History of the Northern American Indians," ed. by Hulbert & Schwarze, Ohio State Archaeological and Historical Society Publications, Vol. XIX (1910), pages 114, 27, 36, 141 and 144.]

Zeisberger, of course, was a missionary to the Delaware for more than 50 years.


Charles Thomson (1785)

Appendix I of Thomas Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, page 189:

"...there was another powerful nation which occupied the country from the head of Chesapeake bay up to the Kittatinney mountain, and as far eastward as Connecticut river, comprehending that part of New York which lies between the Highlands and the ocean, all the State of New Jersey, that part of Pennsylvania which is watered, below the range of the Kittatinney mountains, by the rivers or streams falling into the Delaware, and the county of Newcastle in the State of Delaware, as far as Duck creek...  The nation occupying the tract of country last described, called themselves Lenopi.  The French writers call them Loups; and among the English they are now commonly called Delawares."

Charles Thomson was Teedyuscung's personal clerk and Delaware adoptee.


C. F. Denke (before 1818)

"Minsi, one of the three tribes of the Linni Lenape, or Delawares"

[Brinton & Anthony, A Lenape-English Dictionary, Philadelphia (1889), page 85.  (I have checked the manuscript from the Moravian Archives in Bethlehem, PA - Box 333, Folder 2, Item 1.  This is exactly how it reads; and, Denke left the Canadian mission in 1818, so he had to make this entry prior to that date.)


Charles C. Trowbridge (1824)

"They say that anciently, that is about the arrival of the whites or shortly after, the Delawares, of whom the Munsees were then a constituent part, were a very powerful nation, superior in numbers and prowess to all their neighbours."
Trowbridge (from Capt. Pipe), 1824, from manuscript: TRADITIONS OF THE LENEE LENAUPE OR DELAWARES, by C. C. Trowbridge, on White River, Indiana (1824) - (manuscript transcribed by Jim Rementer)

Last edited by sschkaak (Sep-02-2010 03:00:pm)

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#2 Aug-06-2010 06:21:pm

NanticokePiney
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From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

Is there someone claiming they're not?

The Munsee and Unami Language both come from "Common Delaware" out of New York as you have said and written on several occasions.
The archaeological evidence points to both groups coming out of New York although there is a few centuries of separation. The Meadowood during the Early Woodland the Owasco during the Middle Woodland so there would be some serious linguistic drift considering how fluid and adapting Algonquian is.
Another factor would be the Central-Southern Algonquian influence on the Unami which is not found above the Raritan River.
I would suspect our theology and philosophy would be as fluid as the language so both parts of the Proto-Delaware "went their separate ways" but I would still consider them one tribe.


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#3 Aug-06-2010 07:29:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

"Is there someone claiming they're not?"

Yes.  Marshall Joseph Becker, Ph.D.

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#4 Aug-06-2010 08:50:pm

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

sschkaak wrote:

"Is there someone claiming they're not?"

Yes.  Marshall Joseph Becker, Ph.D.

Oh! I didn't get that bulletin. So I would now guess that we have the Lenape, the Jerseys, the Sicconese Confederacy and the Minsi. Maybe he should get together with McCutchen and they can write a fantasy about the Lenape in a alternate universe for the SciFi Channel or Marvel Comics. yikes
Where did he submit this garbage at ?


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#5 Aug-06-2010 09:17:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

It's been a long-held position of his, but, his influence is starting to infiltrate the thinking of others.

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#6 Aug-06-2010 10:24:pm

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

sschkaak wrote:

It's been a long-held position of his, but, his influence is starting to infiltrate the thinking of others.

Wellllll.....at least we have something new to mock him about when the crowd is at the Museum. Mounier wouldn't fall for this stuff that I know. Neither would David and MaryEllen. Cresson and Bonofiglio either.
I know he got knocked from the board so why the sudden resurgence?


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#7 Aug-06-2010 11:21:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

The post with which this thread began, I also posted at the ASNJ List.  Needless to say, it provoked a spirited discussion with him.

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#8 Aug-06-2010 11:42:pm

Tokipahkinao
Member
Registered: Jul-22-2008
Posts: 212

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

HE! Gang,


                          While you ponder about Becker, here's  something else:

            I didn't get to read today's copy of the Phila. Inquirer until tonight. In the Friday magazine section ,there is a 1/2 page ad on p.25 by  guess what group from guess what PA Museum!!!

                          Here's the latest: "IF YOU LIVE  in eastern Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, or in
southern New York, you live in Lenapehoking, the Lenape  Homeland."  (IF THEY EVER CLAIM THAT THEY
INVENTED THAT WORD  I'LL ......................................!!!)

                          " For hundreds of years, some Lenape people havelived among you in secret, resisting
persecution and forced into migration in the 1700's.  Now they have emerged from hiding to tell you their
story."

                         "  SIGN THE TREATY OF RENEWED FRIENDSHIP

                          In 2002 and 2006, the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania signed a "Treaty of Renewed
brotherhood" with many Pennsylvanians. In this agreement, signers promised to take care  of
Lenapehoking and to educate residents about the past and present of the Lenape people." 


"YOU can sign the new 2010 "Treaty of Renewed Friendship " at the Penn Museum on Saturday,
August 21, from NOON to 4:30 PM, at a program with Native American music, speakers, and the traditional
passing of the wampum. (???) sic. Join us, and be part of History in the making!"


                            So, are you guys going to sharpen your pencils, or sharpen other things . . . .  ?




BY The Way : the headline at the top pf the page is:



         " ATTENTION FAMILIES< STUDENTS<and  TEACHERS:"

Personal opinion: I hope everybody will be at the shore, in the mountains, in school, or anywhere but in Phila.
                            that day!!!

                                                                        Tokipahkinao

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#9 Aug-07-2010 02:31:am

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

Tokipahkinao wrote:

HE! Gang,


                          While you ponder about Becker, here's  something else:

            I didn't get to read today's copy of the Phila. Inquirer until tonight. In the Friday magazine section ,there is a 1/2 page ad on p.25 by  guess what group from guess what PA Museum!!!

                          Here's the latest: "IF YOU LIVE  in eastern Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Delaware, or in
southern New York, you live in Lenapehoking, the Lenape  Homeland."  (IF THEY EVER CLAIM THAT THEY
INVENTED THAT WORD  I'LL ......................................!!!)

                          " For hundreds of years, some Lenape people havelived among you in secret, resisting
persecution and forced into migration in the 1700's.  Now they have emerged from hiding to tell you their
story."

                         "  SIGN THE TREATY OF RENEWED FRIENDSHIP

                          In 2002 and 2006, the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania signed a "Treaty of Renewed
brotherhood" with many Pennsylvanians. In this agreement, signers promised to take care  of
Lenapehoking and to educate residents about the past and present of the Lenape people." 


"YOU can sign the new 2010 "Treaty of Renewed Friendship " at the Penn Museum on Saturday,
August 21, from NOON to 4:30 PM, at a program with Native American music, speakers, and the traditional
passing of the wampum. (???) sic. Join us, and be part of History in the making!"


                            So, are you guys going to sharpen your pencils, or sharpen other things . . . .  ?




BY The Way : the headline at the top pf the page is:



         " ATTENTION FAMILIES< STUDENTS<and  TEACHERS:"

Personal opinion: I hope everybody will be at the shore, in the mountains, in school, or anywhere but in Phila.
                            that day!!!

                                                                        Tokipahkinao

Like you said, "ad". They are now paying for PR. When did any Lenape Tribe buy a ad when we renew our friendship with the Quakers or Swedes?


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
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#10 Aug-07-2010 12:12:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11061

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

MaryEllen, I hope you don't mind but I'm going to copy your post and repost in another thread. tongue

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#11 Aug-07-2010 12:15:pm

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

tree hugger wrote:

MaryEllen, I hope you don't mind but I'm going to copy your post and repost in another thread. tongue

Good! I want to tear this up but I want to get back on topic about the "armchair archaeologist". yikes


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
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#12 Aug-07-2010 12:39:pm

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

sschkaak wrote:

The post with which this thread began, I also posted at the ASNJ List.  Needless to say, it provoked a spirited discussion with him.

I'm not on the list because of my email situations. But I think it doesn't have anything to do with his theories being accepted. I think it has to do with nobody wanting to call anybody to account anymore.
Look at Minderhout. He gets "beaten up" behind his back and not just about that "hidden Indian" crap. His essay on Dafur was so weak he did not even understanding the ethno-political situation. I even made a offer. The Next time the AFSC sends a group to Dafur, I'll take the babysitting gig and have Olemepit throw in a few Ghurka close proximity body guards and a spotter-marksman to hold his hand at my expense. Then he will understand Dafur. neutral
Everybody is a coward anymore Ray. That is why I admire you. Your not. smile


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#13 Aug-07-2010 09:49:pm

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 968

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

sschkaak wrote:

"Is there someone claiming they're not?"

Yes.  Marshall Joseph Becker, Ph.D.

Naturally!

NanticokePiney wrote:

Oh! I didn't get that bulletin. So I would now guess that we have the Lenape, the Jerseys, the Sicconese Confederacy and the Minsi. Maybe he should get together with McCutchen and they can write a fantasy about the Lenape in a alternate universe for the SciFi Channel or Marvel Comics. yikes
Where did he submit this garbage at ?

And then there's the Lenopi. Don't leave them out...


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#14 Aug-07-2010 10:01:pm

lenape
Member
Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

Suckachsinheet wrote:

sschkaak wrote:

"Is there someone claiming they're not?"

Yes.  Marshall Joseph Becker, Ph.D.

Naturally!

NanticokePiney wrote:

Oh! I didn't get that bulletin. So I would now guess that we have the Lenape, the Jerseys, the Sicconese Confederacy and the Minsi. Maybe he should get together with McCutchen and they can write a fantasy about the Lenape in a alternate universe for the SciFi Channel or Marvel Comics. yikes
Where did he submit this garbage at ?

And then there's the Lenopi. Don't leave them out...

would there then be a wanopi?  tongue

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#15 Aug-30-2010 06:24:pm

lenape_eela
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Registered: Aug-26-2010
Posts: 134

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

Is there someone claiming they're not?"

actually i have heard a few of my full blood elders tell me otherwise.  they told me that munsees were of our stock but always did their own thing, had different songs, dressed a lil different and even ran ceremonies in different ways and painted their kee'kee'nee'kuns differently.  to what extent their  much different from our clans , i cant say much else but this ..my grandma used to talk about strange delawares acting strangely at certain times. she'd say" it isnt their fault, they're probably munsee.." and chuckle to herself or with  her friends..as we all knew that our turtle clan bloodline was far superior!  lmao

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#16 Sep-02-2010 03:08:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4307
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Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

I have edited the first post in this thread in order to add the testimony of three Munsee speakers--Albert Seqaqkind Anthony, Jasper Hill ("Big White Owl"), and Jesse Moses--and an additional quotation from the anthropologist, M.R. Harrington. 

I'd also point out that Jacobs and Stonefish call their language, "Lunaapee," in their spelling; which is pronounced exactly as Southern Unami, "Lënape," and Northern Unami, "Lenape."

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#17 Sep-02-2010 07:46:pm

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

sschkaak wrote:

I have edited the first post in this thread in order to add the testimony of three Munsee speakers--Albert Seqaqkind Anthony, Jasper Hill ("Big White Owl"), and Jesse Moses--and an additional quotation from the anthropologist, M.R. Harrington. 

I'd also point out that Jacobs and Stonefish call their language, "Lunaapee," in their spelling; which is pronounced exactly as Southern Unami, "Lënape," and Northern Unami, "Lenape."

I'm telling you Ray, everybody thinks Becker is a joke. It's just nobody has the guts to speak up. hmm


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
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#18 Sep-02-2010 08:20:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4307
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Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

I suppose his peers consider it professional courtesy to be non-confrontational.  Not being an academic, myself, I'm unversed in the finer points of that etiquette.

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#19 Sep-02-2010 10:24:pm

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 968

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

Of course, I've never risen to the distinction of being an academic (it was my ambition at one time), and it seems doubtful I ever will.

But the more I read Becker, the more it becomes evident to me that he takes that "publish or perish" dictum quite seriously. He must be the Barbara Cartland of academic papers on the Lenopi. His bibliographies look like he founded the Treatise of the Month club for academic blather.

I used to try to take him seriously; now he usually merits a "whatever".  roll


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#20 Sep-02-2010 10:46:pm

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

sschkaak wrote:

I suppose his peers consider it professional courtesy to be non-confrontational.  Not being an academic, myself, I'm unversed in the finer points of that etiquette.

Blacksmith and Lenape can attest, as they witnessed our mutual contribution in the total destruction of a certain Yahoo Group, of our tendency to both be unversed in any academic etiquette. yikes


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#21 Sep-04-2010 09:18:pm

Chevy
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Registered: Aug-01-2007
Posts: 1577

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

Does anybody know off the top of their head, how many Munsee went to the Delaware Reserve in Kansas.?
It may have been posted before elsewhere, but I'm forgetful at times.

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#22 Sep-07-2010 09:13:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4307
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Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

Chevy wrote:

Does anybody know off the top of their head, how many Munsee went to the Delaware Reserve in Kansas.?
It may have been posted before elsewhere, but I'm forgetful at times.

208 Munsee Indians were enumerated in the "Census of the Munsee Tribe of Indians within the Fort Leavenworth Agency for the year 1842."  (Not sure if this is what you're asking about, though.)

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#23 Sep-07-2010 01:59:pm

Chevy
Member
Registered: Aug-01-2007
Posts: 1577

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

Thanks, Ray, yes it is, do you have a source, or what I mean to say is there a source online i can look at, and see the names? I think I've seen it in the past.

Yesterday I ran across a census, I think it's a 1900, Cherokee Nation one. It's the one that gives Thomas Newcomb's nickname, and what I had missed before is there are 4  "Munsie" on that census.

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#24 Sep-07-2010 05:55:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
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Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

I have only a hardcopy of that census, and I don't know whether or not it appears online, somewhere.  If I get a chance, someday, I'll scan it and post it on a separate thread.

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#25 Sep-08-2010 01:34:am

Chevy
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Registered: Aug-01-2007
Posts: 1577

Re: Are the Munsee "Lenape"?

Thanks, Ray.  Appreciate it.

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