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#1 Dec-24-2009 08:53:am

sschkaak
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The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

THE LENAPE: THEIR HISTORY AND CULTURE, by Messochwen Teme, Finley, TN, 2002, may be characterized as a 315-page handbook, or manual, of neo-Lenapeism." I use the term, "neo-Lenape," to designate those self-proclaimed "Lenape" groups which sprung up, mainly in Pennsylvania and Ohio, during the 1970's; whose members created for themselves a "history" and "culture" which freely borrowed themes and practices from many unrelated Indian tribes, and has only the most tenuous connection to genuine Lenape history and culture. I use "neo-Lenape" instead of "pseudo-Lenape" only because "SOME" of these folks "MAY" have real Lenape ancestry, though proof of this is seldom, if ever, forthcoming.

The author, Robert Davis, begins with an account of his ancestors' lives in Moravian missionary settlements of New York, between 1830 and 1920. This presents an immediate puzzlement, since the Moravians gave up their missionary work with the Iroquois during the French and Indian War, in the mid-1700's; and, the last Moravian mission to the Delaware Indians, in the Eastern U.S.A., ended in 1821, in Goshen, Ohio.

Next, Davis tells us that he received the name, "Messochwen Teme," from "tribal elders" of the Eastern Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania. I have no doubt that this is true, because the name is composed of words drawn from both Northern Unami and Southern Unami sources. It is ungrammatical and reminiscent of those names chosen for themselves by Boy Scouts in the Order of the Arrow. This is typical of the "Indian names" given to people in Pennsylvania, in the past 30 years or so. "Messochwen" ('wandering') is an animate intransitive verb with an indefinite subject. It can't be used as an adjective, to describe the noun, "Teme" ('wolf'). It should have been put in the form of a participle, for this purpose. Thus, the proper Northern Unami form would be "Messochwet Metimmeu."

Believe it or not, "MT" (as he calls himself) tells us, on page 3, that, for the Indians of the East Coast, "there was no such thing as a reservation during the colonial period or the early years of the United States. Not even the concept of a reservation existed at that time in history." In his research, "MT" must have missed the facts that Indian Reservations existed in colonial Connecticut, New York, New Jersey and Virginia! And also, that they continued to exist, in those eastern states, long after the Revolutionary War. AND, that many of them have continued to exist, right up to TODAY! The Scaghticoke Reservation, in Connecticut, has been continually inhabited by descendants of Lenape-speaking people, since its founding in the colonial period! (By the way, the Scaghticokes are a federally-recognized tribe, at the time of this writing.)

On page 5, "MT" says that "the early missions sought to destroy the 'Indian' identity and to 'make white men out of them.' On page 51, "MT" attributes this saying to David Zeisberger, of all people! It is beyond belief that the man who lived among the Delaware Indians for more than fifty years, was adopted by them, served on the Great Council of the Delaware Nation, learned the Lenape language and taught and wrote in it, and treated EVERYONE the same, would have said anything like this! And, of course, he didn't! This statement was actually made by the founder of the Carlisle Indian Industrial School, which had NO connection with the Moravians.

Pages 11-30 reprint the same incredible creation story found in Treebeard's work, THE GRANDFATHERS SPEAK. In fact, this is Treebeard's version, as is evidenced by the use of the same faulty Lenape words made-up by Treebeard! Little of it can be attributed to Lenape beliefs. The main character, throughout, is the Ojibway culture-hero, "Nanapush," who was unknown in Lenape tradition.

Pages 34-43 deal with Rafinesque's ridiculous fraud, the Walam Olum. "MT" presents some pros and cons regarding the work's authenticity, but doesn't take a stand, either way.

On pages 50-52, the author returns to another rant against the "Moravians" of his imagination (as opposed to the Moravians of history). In his imagination, the Moravians "originated in Germany."
In REALITY, the Moravians originated in Czechoslovakia.  In his imagination, the Moravians "established many missions throughout 'New Netherlands.'" In REALITY, the Moravians didn't emigrate to the Western Hemisphere until the 18th Century - many decades after the fall of "New Netherlands" to the English! In his imagination, the Moravians "forced" Lenapes to become "Mission Indians," and their mission settlements "were little more than slave camps." In REALITY, the Moravians were strict pacifists, who NEVER "forced" any Indian to live in their mission towns. "MT" complains that the "Mission Indians" had to "abandon" their traditional beliefs, and "attend Christian services," and live the farming life of the Moravians. Well, DUH! In his imagination, the Moravians kept missions in southern New York until the 1930's! In REALITY, the last New York Indian mission, at Wechquadnach (Dutchess County) was closed in 1753! There was only ever ONE other New York Indian mission at Shekomeko (Dutchess County). That was closed in 1744!

Pages 61-121 reprint various historical treaties involving the Lenape. This is actually a handy compendium, for those who do not have access to these documents from other sources.

On page 134, "MT" lists the word, "O:neh" ('Goodbye'), as Lenape. It's NOT. This is a Tuscarora word.
On page 143, "MT" gives a politically-correct narrative on the treatment of Lenape prisoners. He just can't bring himself to say that some prisoners were tortured to death, by the most exquisite means. The worst he can come up with is that some sustained "a severe....even horrific beating."

155-158 is Treebeard's story of "How the Pipe Came to the Lenape." It's more about "Nanapush," "the Fire of Peace," and other non-Lenape imports.

The next sections are about dances and games. These appear to be okay. Davis's works are always only as good as his sources. Unfortunately, he employs both good and bad sources, between which he seems unable to discriminate.

184-210 contain what he calls "the Twelve Laws." On page 221, he tells us that these 12 Laws were given to the Lenape "by Nanpush after he created the new world." Each law has a pictographic representation. Where these came from is not stated; but, they're certainly NOT Lenape. These 12 Laws are either borrowed from some other tribe, or invented by someone, recently. The Lenape words for the laws are derived from Moravian dictionaries, but put into a new spelling system. The transition to this new orthography was not always kind to the original, authentic words!

212-217 deals with "Mesingw" and "Misinkhalikan" (as written here). It's all from Treebeard, and says that Mesingw is "Big Foot" or "Sasquatch." This is an idea which I have never heard expressed by a REAL Lenape!

On page 220, "MT" lists several names for God, in "European and Asian religions." Among these, he includes "Hosanna," "Mohammed" and "Buddha." The first is a shout of praise, the second the entirely human prophet of Islam, and the last is Siddhartha Gautama, the founder of Buddhism. None of these are "God"!

On 223, he says that "Dream catchers were originated by the Lenape." This is simply not true. They originated with the Ojibway.

228-232 lists "Spirit Beings," a few of which have NOTHING to do with Lenape beliefs. The Lenape have NO "Father Sun," "Grandmother Moon," "Nanapush" or "Great Toad."

The remainder of this work (pp.234-313) consists of various authentic Lenape and "neo-Lenape" stories. Those from Nora Thompson Dean, Richard C. Adams and John Bierhorst are authentic. The rest are either newly made-up or borrowed from other tribes; or, in some cases, embellished and distorted versions of authentic tales. Most of these are from Treebeard, so I refer you to my review of his book, THE GRANDFATHERS SPEAK, for commentary on them.

Messochwen Teme's work is, as we have seen, part-traditional and part-"neo-Lenape." It's not my "cup of tea," but it's a nice manual for all those new "Lenape Indians" that have sprung up in the past thirty years, as well as all the sycophantic Whites in their entourages, who fawn upon them. As one Eastern Lenape Nation elder put it: "This is great.......the Lenape Gospel." Whatever...

Ray Whritenour
LENAPE TEXTS & STUDIES

[see a review of his other book, below]

Last edited by sschkaak (Oct-14-2013 03:59:pm)

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#2 Dec-24-2009 08:57:am

sschkaak
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Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

Luckily, Al Carroll doesn't mind quoting me when it suits his purposes.  Hence, the preservation of this review.  lolneutral

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#3 Dec-24-2009 09:02:am

tree hugger
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Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

lol  I was wondering how you grabbed that one, I couldn't find it anywhere.

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#4 Oct-11-2011 04:24:pm

sschkaak
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Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

UNAMI: THE LANGUAGE OF THE LENAPE, by Messochwen Teme

This is the title of a new book, by "Messochwen Teme" (Robert A. Davis).
I'm afraid I'm going to have to place this one on the list of works I do
NOT recommend for learning Lenape.

I would estimate that more than 95% of the Lenape words in this book are
drawn from the three Southern Unami works, LENAPE LANGUAGE LESSONS, by
Nora Thompson Dean; CONVERSATIONAL LENAPE, by Janifer Brown & James
Rementer; and, THE DELAWARE LANGUAGE, by Lucy Blalock, Bruce L. Pearson
and James Rementer. Distressingly, however, no permission to use the
content of these works was ever sought by the "author," nor granted by
the various publishers and copyright holders.

This little matter aside, the aim of the book is to provide the reader
with a "simplified" grammar and a useful vocabulary. Unfortunately, the
author has misunderstood some of the grammatical concepts and
terminology employed in THE DELAWARE LANGUAGE, and inserted, here and
there, a few words which are either not in this dialect or which are not
in this language. For instance, he defines the very short, weak vowel,
"schwa," as "a letter that assumes the sound of another letter. Vowels
are good examples of schwas, as when an 'a' takes on the sound of a
'u'." THIS IS NOT A SCHWA!

Under "Vowels," he states, "The Lenape language has eleven vowel sounds,
six of which are schwas, and are designated by diacritical marks over
the letter." Here, the author mistakes the six short vowels for
"schwas," although the "schwa" is only one of the six short vowels!

In Chapter 2, he writes, "There is no distinction between past and
present..."  He notes that the future tense is marked by the particle, "xu," or the
suffix, "-ch," but he doesn't realize that the past tense is marked by
the particle, "mah."

In his "Author's Notes," at the beginning of the book, he writes,
"kaholel" ('I love you'), four times--forgetting to insert the euphonic
connective, "t," before the "a." This word should be "ktaholel."

In the vocabulary section he writes things like "maxke" ('bear') and
"maxkeyok" ('bears'). These should be "maxkw" and "maxkok." He has
"wapink" ('opossum') and "wapinkak" ('opossums'). These should be
"opinkw" and "opinkok." His words, "wapsini" ('white man'), "yakwawi"
('mastodon') and "nipahuma" ('Grandmother Moon') are NON-EXISTENT in
Lenape (as written and glossed). ["Nipahuma" would mean "absent Moon" or
"dead Moon" in Lenape.] And, there are others I won't get into, here.

Mr. Davis had a pretty good idea for a book, but there are far too many
mistakes in this book to recommend it. And then there's that "sticky"
problem of plagiarism!

Ray Whritenour
LENAPE TEXTS & STUDIES

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#5 Oct-12-2011 07:37:pm

sschkaak
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Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

Reluctantly, I think I have to respond to this post of Robert Davis (a.k.a., Messochwen Teme; a.k.a., tn_metis).  I'll do so in this place, as suggested by the administrator.  I'd like to make something clear, at the outset.  I've never criticized any poster, on any forum, for errors made in spelling or punctuation.  However, since he seems to relish this kind of trivial pursuit, I'm making an exception, in this case.  My comments are inside brackets, in boldface type.


I see your list of accomplishments, and have this to say.   {This should end in a colon, not a period.}

{It's not a list of "accomplishments."  It's a list of scholars who have consulted me and/or my work.}
 

Swarthmore college - a rather prestigious and respected college - offers a course in the Lenape language. The text materials used in the course were assembled by Billy Buefeathers {should be "Blue Feather"--not "Buefeathers."} and Shelly Depaul {should be "DePaul"}, and the course is taught by Ms. Depaul {should be "DePaul"}. Now I think you and I can agree as to the lack of legitimacy of Mr. Bluefeathers {should be "Blue Feather"} and Ms. Depaul {should be "DePaul"}, so the mere fact that a respected institution or individual uses a particular source is not necessarily a verification of that source's expertise or legitimacy.  {What "respected individual" used these sources?  You list only an institution.}  {By the way, Blue Feather had nothing to do with this language program.}



My divorce lawyer told my ex (and i {should be "I," not "i"} quote) "the depths of your arrogance are unfathomable" . Since you - who by your own admission - has no education or training in linguistics, yet seem to believe that you are more of an expert in the field of linguistics than people who have a PhD {should be "Ph.D."} in linguistics and 30 or more years of teaching experience in linguistics at university levels, I believe my that {should be "that my"} lawyer's comment is very applicable to you as well. {"Linguistics" is not my "field," so I obviously don't think that.  The Northern Unami dialect of Delaware is my "field."  In that field, I claim a greater expertise, by far, than you and/or your Ph.D. linguists.}  I think it's rather humorous that your arrogance has even led you to believe you know who I am, even though I have never identified myself by my "real world" name. {We all know who you are, Mr. Robert Davis.}  By the way, I've done some research on that individual as well, but he is not the subject here.  {So, you've "researched" yourself?  Now, that is humorous.}



While we're on the subject of your credentials, I've done some homework. I've {should be "I"} have found that you, and one of your sheeples from Bartlesville, have a history across the web of launching vicious personal attacks against anyone who happens to disagree with you, in an attempt to justify your own "unparalleled expertise". The launching of such personal attacks is merely a tactic used to attempt to discredit others because the attacker cannot defend or justify their own claims based on the facts. I prefer to relate facts and let the facts speak for themselves.  {I don't believe I've ever launched a "vicious personal attack" against anyone.  I did write unfavorable reviews of your two books, as well as those of others, so readers could be wary of all the terrible mistakes in those works.  Those weren't "personal attacks."  They were objective critiques.}



Ironically, Mr. Whritenour attacks anyone not from Bartlesville, who claims to have any Lenape heritage {I'm afraid you'll have a difficult time convincing people, here, that this statement has any validity; since I've posted my support for the Ramapough, Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape and Sand Hill Indians, on this very forum!} while Mr. Whritenour himself seemingly cannot decide from one minute to the next what his own heritage is. Here are his own words on the subject of his heritage:



Sat Dec 18, 2004, "Thanks for the invitation, but I must decline. My "webtv" browser won't allow me into "msn" chat rooms. In addition, I'm not an American Indian-much less a Nanticoke-LenniLenape -so, I'd rather not trespass." (The term Lenni-Lenape is grammatically incorrect, and historically the Lenape people have never referred to themselves as Lenni-Lenape.)  {Wrong.  "Lenni Lenape" is historically and grammatically correct.  In fact, it is still used on the Seal of The Delaware Tribe of Indians, headquartered in Bartlesville, OK!}



And on Monday, Jan 31, 2005 "I do have some American Indian ancestry; and I have the DNA evidence to show it. "



And on another date, "Sky," here are my answers (inclosed in triple brackets). {{{Yes. And, if you take the time to actually read MY posts you'll see that I NEVER claimed to be an American Indian}}}. (It's spelled enclosed not inclosed-I'm surprised a language expert such as Mr. Whritenour wouldn't know that)  {Look it up, "Noah Webster."  The word is "inclosed."  Just a variant spelling.  We smart people know this.  By the way, you need a period at the end of that sentence.}



And yet again on another date, "I am NOT an American Indian. It may sound like a cliche, but my great-grandmother WAS an American Indian. That does NOT make me an Indian." (By the way it's spelled clichĂ© not cliche-I'm surprised a language expert such as Mr. Whritenour wouldn't know that)  {Wrong, again, "Mr. Funk & Wagnall."  The word, "cliche," does not require an accent mark in English.  And, you forgot that period, again.}



So let me get this right--he is not Indian but he has the DNA to prove he is.  his great-grandmother was Indian but he is not...and even though he claims to have the DNA to prove he is Indian he has never claimed to be Indian...ok...I guess that makes sense in Mr. Whritenour's private little world.   {You got it all correct except the part about having "the DNA to prove he is Indian."  The DNA is evidence of Indian ancestry.  I'm not 1/4 Indian BQ, nor do I belong to any recognized tribe, so I don't consider myself "Indian."  It's not really that difficult of a concept to understand!}



According to a published biologist with degrees in molecular biology, evolutionary biology, certification in bio-technology, and who has taught biology at both the high school and college levels (SUNY), there are NO racial or ethnic markers in DNA. An individual's race or ethnicity CANNOT be determined by the individual's DNA alone. The companies that advertise that they can do so are scams.  {Wrong.  This is just out-and-out balderdash.  There are many racial ancestry-informative markers in DNA, and some ancestry-determinative markers.  (This is the kind of knock on DNA tests one might expect from someone whose test showed no American Indian ancestry.)}



Mr. Whritenour lives in Butler, New Jersey. Other than the fact that the only support he has received beyond his hometown of Butler {When did I receive any support from my home town?  You're just making stuff up!}  for his one claim to fame book has come from Bartlesville, he has no other apparent connection to Bartlesville. That book consisted of the Zeisberger Dictionary to which Mr. Whritenaur {should be "Whritenour"} added a few annotations and released it as his own work. ("A DELAWARE - ENGLISH LEXICON COMPILED BY DAVID ZEISBERGER ed. by Raymond Whritenour).  {I've never made any "claim to fame."  Contrary to what is stated here, it took a dozen years to put every Delaware entry onto 6,299 index cards, edit the spelling, and type up the manuscript--while working my regular job during the day.  This was before the general availability of personal computers.  Zeisberger's Indian Dictionary is NOT alphabetized according to the Delaware words.  Of course, you would have to have actually seen that book to know this!} 



This book was published by his own phantom company called "Lenape Texts and Studies". Funny thing is the state of New Jersey has no record of any business license or Sales/Use Tax Permits in the name of "Lenape Texts and Studies", nor does Butler County, NJ, nor the City of Butler, NJ. Nor are there any such records by name to Ray Whritenour, or to any business in which Ray Whritenour is the owner or principle.  {This is simply an out-and-out lie.  I've filed sales and use tax forms every year since my first book was published.  By the way, there are no such places as "Butler County" and "City of Butler" in New Jersey.  LOL!}



Mr. Whritenour claims to be an expert linguist {No such claim was ever made.} and an expert on the Lenape language {True, to the extent someone can be an "expert" on a language which is not his or her first language.}, based on his claim to fame book. {No.  Based on thirty years of studying the Delaware language.}  But he also admits to having no education, training, or experience as a linguist, and admits his only knowledge of Lenape culture and language comes from reading books. Don't take my word for it, here, again, are his own words:



Sun Aug 28, 2005 " That is, I have not been trained in a college setting and received a degree in Linguistics." 



Mr. Whritenour claims he is a teacher or professor {I don't recall ever saying or writing that I am a "teacher" or "professor."  More bullshit.}, yet by his own admission he has no education in the language or culture, nor in linguistics. {And, yet more B.S.  The fact that I didn't have a FORMAL education in these things does NOT mean I had "no education" in them.  Try to keep up.}  With a very few limited and well defined exceptions, a college degree and a teacher's certification is required in all 50 states to be able to teach in any legitimate, accredited institution of education.  {Kind of irrelevant, seeing that I'm not a "teacher."}  Mr. Whritenaur {should be "Whritenour"} does not possess a college degree in linguistics nor a teaching certification, so where does he teach?  {Stick around.  You might actually learn something.}



From a letter attesting to Mr. Whritenour's "expertise"-"Ray Whritenour is a serious avocational student of the Delaware(Lenape) linguistic materials...but, as he candidly concedes, as a philologist not a card-carrying linguist." (Avocation is a fancy word for hobby, and Webster's New World Dictionary defines a philologist as a lover of language. (A person can love his hobby of flying RC airplanes but it does not make him a pilot.)  {Why don't you copy and paste that entire letter from Dr. Ives Goddard of the Smithsonian, instead of attempting to put your own negative spin on a single sentence, lifted out of context?}



Wed Aug 03, 2005.."I'll never be fluent in Lenape, but I understand the grammar and have a large vocabulary, gained over more than twenty years of study. I guess you could say I'm semi-literate, since I'm better at the written language than the spoken one, unfortunately."



Lappitsch knewull,

Ray Whritenour



(The proper term is lapich knewel..after "over more than 20 years of study of the Lenape language I would think he'd know the difference between German phonetic spellings and proper Lenape spellings. {The proper orthography for Mission Delaware is the spelling system used by the Moravian missionaries.  Read on.  Learn.}  In this very forum Mr. Whritenaur {should be "Whritenour"} states, "There is no such thing as an indigenous Lenape spelling system." If there is no such thing as a Lenape spelling system, then how can Mr. Whritenaur {should be "Whritenour"} be "better at the written language"? Without a spelling system there can not be a written language.)  {There are "spelling systems" for all the dialects.  NONE of them are "indigenous."}



And on Sun Feb 20, 2005, "I'm sorry to admit that almost all my knowledge of Lenape culture and language and people has come from reading books. I do have some audio tapes and sound files for the language and songs and, I have had a few Delaware friends, acquaintances and correspondents, over the years (as I do now), but, most of what I know is from books."



So there you have it in his own words...his limited knowledge of the Lenape culture and language based on a few books {Where did I say "a few"?  That's your erroneous characterization!}  and audio tapes, his complete lack of education, training, or experience in linguistics {People should understand--as you apparently do not--that "linguistics" is a field of scientific study which is NOT the same thing as the study of a specific language.  Linguistics is concerned with general principles and theories of human speech.  A linguist with a Ph.D., who knows NOTHING about the Delaware language--like the anonymous sources you cite--has no more expertise in Delaware than does Forrest Gump.}, and his consistant {Are you trying to write "consistent" or "constant"?  Either way, it's spelled wrong.} paradoxical claims and statements, all the while claiming to be expert enough to know more than published professionals with MS and PhD. degrees, and decades of experience teaching at high school and university levels.  {Again, who are these people who know the Delaware language better than me?  I'd love to converse with them--in Delaware!}



When Mr. Whritenour belittles another person he states, "The phonies will dance all around the issue or tell you they don't have to prove who they are."  {I don't "belittle" people.  I criticize mistake-ridden books and articles.}  Yet when asked for his own credentials he states: "As for my background and credentials: I'm not going to toot my own horn" Just a bit hypocritical there, besides being an obvious attempt to conceal the fact that he has no credentials.  {Unfortunately, I've had to "toot my own horn," now; since, there are readers who may think something you've written has some sliver of credibility--which, of course, it doesn't.}

Last edited by sschkaak (Oct-13-2011 10:13:am)

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#6 Oct-12-2011 07:41:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11094

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

You didn't have to defend yourself to anyone here, or anyone that has known you on other sites. I just have to say, that rocked. big_smile

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#7 Oct-12-2011 07:43:pm

sschkaak
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Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

Many thanks, TH!  I worry about those who don't know, or who are just casually reading here.  Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.

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#8 Oct-12-2011 07:54:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11094

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

sschkaak wrote:

Many thanks, TH!  I worry about those who don't know, or who are just casually reading here.  Otherwise, I wouldn't bother.

You do have a point there. We have a lot of readers, some may not realize MT's history either.

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#9 Oct-13-2011 12:33:am

Suckachsinheet
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Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 968

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

Maybe he should get his own thread in "Who Are These People". Just to get him on the scorecard.


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#10 Oct-14-2011 06:22:pm

tree hugger
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Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

Bump.. and yeah. roll

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#11 Oct-29-2011 09:26:pm

tn_metis
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Posts: 20

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

On this book I can ONLY comment on the review given here........I've copied and pasted the paragraphs I wish to address, and my comments are followed in upper case letters........

On pages 50-52, the author returns to another rant against the "Moravians" of his imagination (as opposed to the Moravians of history). In his imagination, the Moravians "originated in Germany."
In REALITY, the Moravians originated in Czechoslovakia. In his imagination, the Moravians "gained widespread influence throughout Europe, and especially in Holland." In REALITY, the Moravians were a very tiny sect with little influence outside their homeland. In his imagination, the Moravians "established many missions throughout 'New Netherlands.'" In REALITY, the Moravians didn't emigrate to the Western Hemisphere until the 18th Century–many decades after the fall of "New Netherlands" to the English! In his imagination, the Moravians "forced" Lenapes to become "Mission Indians," and their mission settlements "were little more than slave camps." In REALITY, the Moravians were strict pacifists, who NEVER "forced" any Indian to live in their mission towns. "MT" complains that the "Mission Indians" had to "abandon" their traditional beliefs, and "attend Christian services," and live the farming life of the Moravians. Well, DUH! In his imagination, the Moravians kept missions in southern New York until the 1930's! In REALITY, the last New York Indian mission, at Wechquadnach (Dutchess County) was closed in 1753! There was only ever ONE other New York Indian mission–at Shekomeko (Dutchess County). That was closed in 1744!


ACTUALLY AT THE TIME OF THE MORAVIANS, CZECHOSLOVAKIA DID NOT EXIST.......IT DIDN'T EXIST UNTIL THE EARLY 1900'S....PRIOR TO THAT IT WAS A REGION OF THE AUSTRIO-HUNGARY EMPIRE FORMED IN THE 1860'S.AND PRIOR TO THAT IT WAS A REGION OF GERMANY (HAPSBURG AUSTRIO-GERMAN EMPIRE).........THE AUTHOR'S CLAIM THAT THE MORAVIANS ORIGINATED IN GERMANY IS HISTORICALLY CORRECT...........

ALSO RECENTLY I WAS RESEARCHING INDIAN VILLAGES AND JESUIT MISSIONS IN THE HUDSON VALLEY (DELAWARE COUNTY AND ITS SURROUNDING COUNTIES TO BE SPECIFIC) AND FOUND NEW YORK STATE RECORDS OF MORAVIAN PERFORMED MARRIAGES ALL THE WAY INTO THE 1950's..........OBVIOUSLY THERE WERE, IN FACT, MORAVIANS, BY WHATEVER NAME THEY MAY HAVE CHANGED TO - UNITED BRETHREN BEING ONE POSSIBLE EXAMPLE - IN NEW YORK EVEN TO THE MID 20th CENTURY---THERE WERE ALSO JESUIT, LUTHERAN, AND PRYSBETARIAN (Probably not spelled right) MISSIONS IN THAT AREA UNTIL THE EARLY TO MID 1900's...THERE WERE ALSO A NUMBER OF INDIAN VILLAGES AS WELL.........MANY VILLAGES IN DELAWARE COUNTY  - BOTH INDIAN AND NON INDIAN WERE DESTROYED IN THE MID 1900's TO CREATE RESEVOIRS FOR NEW YORK CITY.........

Indian Reservations existed in colonial Connecticut, New York,

TECHNICALLY INDIAN RESERVATIONS DID NOT EXIST IN COLONIAL NEW YORK..............THE IROQUOIS (who also controlled the Algonkian tribes and spoke for them)  SOLD NEARLY ALL THEIR LAND IN NEW YORK.......SOME TO THE STATE AND SOME TO THE HOLDERS OF GOVERNMENT (INCLUDING PRE-REVOLUTIONARY WAR GOVERNMENTS)  GRANTS TO INDIVIDUALS.......AS APART OF THE "DEALS" BEWTEEN NEW YORK, MASSACHUSSETS, AND THE GRANT HOLDERS, THE INDIANS WERE GIVEN LIFE LONG "OCCUPATION RIGHTS" TO THE LAND..........THERE WERE A LOT OF  TRANSITIONS OF THE LANDS AND THE PEOPLE'SAND EVENTUALLY THE TRIBES SOLD ALL THEIR LAND HOLDINGS...........EVENTUALLY THERE WERE PERMANENT LAND AREAS ASSIGNED TO THE VARIOUS TRIBES AND THESE EVENTUALLY BECAME A PART OF THE FEDERAL RESERVATION SYSTEM...........THERE REMAINED INDEPENDENT INDIAN VILLAGES AND VARIOUS MISSIONS IN NEW YORK STATE UNTIL THE MID 1900's......................

IF, THIS MT WAS REFERRING TO A FEDERAL RESERVATION SYSTEM THEN HE IS CORRECT AS THAT DID NOT OCCUR UNTIL THE 1860'S UNDER GENERAL CARLTON AND LINCOLN.
********************************************************************************************************************************
Pages 11-30 reprint the same incredible creation story found in Treebeard's work, THE GRANDFATHERS SPEAK. In fact, this is Treebeard's version, as is evidenced by the use of the same faulty Lenape words made-up by Treebeard! Little of it can be attributed to Lenape beliefs. The main character, throughout, is the Ojibway culture-hero, "Nanapush," who was unknown in Lenape tradition.

I HAVE READ "GRANDFATHERS SPEAK" SO I CAN COMMENT HERE.........THAT CREATION STORY IS ALSO CONTAINED WITHIN THE ARCHIVES OF LENAPE RELATED PAPERS AND ARTIFACTS AT THE BARTOW-PELL MUSEUM (NYC), THE MARYLAND HISTORICAL TRUST, AND THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, AND OTHERS...SO THERE MAY VERY WELL BE SOME CREDENCE TO IT.......

NANAPUSH IS KNOWN BY A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT NAMES ACROSS A FAIRLY WIDE SPECTRUM OF THE ALGONKIAN SPEAKING PEOPLE, AND ALL ALGONKIAN SPEAKING PEOPLES ORIGINATED FROM A COMMON ROOT, SO ITS ACTUALLY QUITE POSSIBLE TO HAVE THE SAME OR SIMILAR STORY AMONG DIFFERENT ALGONKIAN SPEAKING PEOPLES.........SUCH IS COMMON AMONG MANY CULTURES WHICH SHARE COMMON ROOTS - JUDISM - CHRISTIAN....GREEK - ROMAN......CHINESE - JAPANESE ARE JUST A FEW EXAMPLES OF DIFFERENT CULTURES SHARING SOME SIMILAR OR THE SAME STORIES/TRADITIONS BECAUSE THEY COME FROM A COMMON ROOT CULTURE.............
********************************************************************************************************************************

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#12 Oct-29-2011 11:29:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4342
Website

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

Mr. Davis:

Do we really want to rehash all this stuff, again?  You wrote that the Moravians "originated in Germany"--a nation which did NOT exist in the historic period when the Moravian Church began--so, your statement obviously meant that they "originated within the boundaries of the modern state of Germany."  And, I answered in kind, by pointing out that they actually "originated within the boundaries of the modern state of Czechoslovakia (that portion of it which is the Czech Republic, today).  Had you said they "originated in the Austro-Hungarian Empire," your statement would have been correct.  However, you didn't say that!  You said "Germany," which is incorrect.

There are Moravian churches all through New York, even today.  BUT, there haven't been any Moravian Indian missions in that state since 1753.  You said they had "missions" there up into the 1930's!  They didn't.

No amount of "weasel words" are going to convince anybody that the colonial New York Indian reservations were not Indian reservations!  And, besides the Iroquois lands you mention, there are Indian reservations on Long Island, NY, which have been there since colonial times.  If he (you) were referring to a "federal" reservation system, he (you) shouldn't have written, "there was no such thing as a reservation during the colonial period or the early years of the United States. Not even the concept of a reservation existed at that time in history." 

I really don't care in what "archives" someone has stashed that ridiculous creation story.  It's ludicrous.  And, you can't say Nanapush "could be" Lenape--using some convoluted reasoning.  You have to show that he actually is!  You can't, because he isn't!

I sincerely hope you corrected all these mistakes (and all the others to which I directed your attention) in later editions of this particular book, as well as those in your language book!  That would be wonderful!

Last edited by sschkaak (Oct-29-2011 11:33:pm)

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#13 Oct-30-2011 02:28:am

tn_metis
Visitor
Registered: Sep-22-2011
Posts: 20

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

I would like to take just a moment to respond to Mr. Whritenour's comments on my earlier exposč of him...........His words are copied and pasted, in some cases along with my original remarks, and my comments follow in upper case letters........these will be my last words on the subject..............

Swarthmore college - a rather prestigious and respected college - offers a course in the Lënape language. The text materials used in the course were assembled by Billy Buefeathers {should be "Blue Feather"--not "Buefeathers."} and Shelly Depaul {should be "DePaul"}, and the course is taught by Ms. Depaul {should be "DePaul"}. Now I think you and I can agree as to the lack of legitimacy of Mr. Bluefeathers {should be "Blue Feather"} and Ms. Depaul {should be "DePaul"}, so the mere fact that a respected institution or individual uses a particular source is not necessarily a verification of that source's expertise or legitimacy.  {What "respected individual" used these sources?  You list only an institution.}  {By the way, Blue Feather had nothing to do with this language program.}

I STAND CORRECTED ON THE ISSUE OF BILLY BLUE FEATHERS.......IT WAS IN FACT ROBERT RUTH.......I MIS-SPOKE BY INDICATING BLUE FEATHERS INSTEAD OF RUTH AS  CONTRIBUTING TO THE MATERIALS USED BY MS. DEPAUL IN HER LANGUAGE COURSE...........I CLEARLY STATED INSTITUTIONS OR INDIVIDUALS.........SWARTHMORE WAS MERELY ONE EXAMPLE OF AN INSTITUTION OR INDIVIDUAL - IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE POINT THAT WAS BEING MADE............NOR WILL YOUR WEASEL WORDS (TO QUOTE YOUR OWN WORDS)
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************

I see your list of accomplishments, and have this to say.   {This should end in a colon, not a period.}

NO...I INTENDED IT TO BE A PERIOD, AND A PERIOD IS ACCEPTABLE PUNCTUATION THERE.  PUNCTUATION IS OFTEN USED TO ESTABLISH - AND PERHAPS THIS ISN'T THE RIGHT TERM - READING TEMPO, TONE, EMPHASIS, AND SUCH......IT IS A COMMON PRACTICE IN DIFFERENT FORMS OF LITERATURE AND PROSE.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************
{"Linguistics" is not my "field," so I obviously don't think that.  The Northern Unami dialect of Delaware is my "field."  In that field, I claim a greater expertise, by far, than you and/or your Ph.D. linguists.}

YES I KNOW......YOU THINK YOU KNOW MORE THAN, PH.D.'S, RESPECTED PROFESSIONALS WITH DECADES OF TEACHING EXPERIENCE AT MAJOR UNIVERSITIES, AND NATIVE SPEAKERS, EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE NO EDUCATION, TRAINING, OR PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE IN LINGUISTICS........AND BY THE WAY THE DISCUSSION WAS ABOUT THE GERMANIC SPELLINGS (NOT THE LENAPE SPELLINGS).....(TALK ABOUT BACKTALKING AND WEASEL WORDS).......JUST A REMINDER - 1 OF THE PROFESSORS I WORKED WITH HAS A PH.D. IN LINGUISTICS, AND A PH.D. IN GERMAN, THE OTHER HAS A PH.D. IN LINGUISTICS AND SPECIALIZES IN SUB-DIALECTS AND FOREIGN LANGUAGES, AND THE THIRD PERSON WHO ASSISTED ME WAS A NATIVE GERMAN WITH A DEGREE IN ANTHROPOLOGY.........I WOULD SAY THAT ANY ONE OF THEM KNOW MORE ABOUT GERMAN THAN YOU..............
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************
According to a published biologist with degrees in molecular biology, evolutionary biology, certification in bio-technology, and who has taught biology at both the high school and college levels (SUNY), there are NO racial or ethnic markers in DNA. An individual’s race or ethnicity CANNOT be determined by the individual’s DNA alone. The companies that advertise that they can do so are scams.  {Wrong.  This is just out-and-out balderdash.  There are many racial ancestry-informative markers in DNA, and some ancestry-determinative markers.  (This is the kind of knock on DNA tests one might expect from someone whose test showed no American Indian ancestry.)}

AND ONCE AGAIN YOU KNOW MORE THAN A PUBLISHED BIOLOGIST WITH DEGREES IN MOLECULAR BIOLOGY, EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY, CERTIFICATION IN BIOTECHNOLOGY, AND WHO HAS TAUGHT AT BOTH THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL AND AT ONE OF THE LARGEST UNIVERSITY SYSTEMS IN THE NATION (SUNY)..........BTW...WHAT ARE YOUR OWN CREDENTIALS IN BIOLOGY????

(YOU EVEN CLAIM TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT I'VE HAD ANY DNA TESTING...........IT MUST BE NICE TO KNOW EVERYTHING)
************************************************************************ ********************************************************************************
And on another date, “Sky," here are my answers (inclosed in triple brackets). {{{Yes. And, if you take the time to actually read MY posts you'll see that I NEVER claimed to be an American Indian}}}. (It’s spelled enclosed not inclosed…I’m surprised a language expert such as Mr. Whritenour wouldn’t know that)  {Look it up, "Noah Webster."  The word is "inclosed."  Just a variant spelling.  We smart people know this.  By the way, you need a period at the end of that sentence.}

ACTUALLY I USE THE MERRIAM-WEBSTER DICTIONARY AND THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF THE AMERICAN LANGUAGE........
********************************************************************************************************************************************************
{I don't believe I've ever launched a "vicious personal attack" against anyone.  I did write unfavorable reviews of your two books, as well as those of others, so readers could be wary of all the terrible mistakes in those works.  Those weren't "personal attacks."  They were objective critiques.}

SOME YEARS AGO YOU MADE THE FOLLOWING REMARKS AGAINST THE AUTHOR OF A BOOK YOU WERE 'CRITIQUING'....."let me jsut say i think youre a fake.  you are a plagarist"........"did ya skate thru college pagarizing everyones work as well?"......."ya probably would of pawned all this info off as youre own."

THOSE DO NOT SOUND LIKE 'OBJECTIVE CRITIQUES' OF THE BOOK IN QUESTION, BUT RATHER LIKE PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST THE AUTHOR.........WHEN YOU STATE YOU'VE NEVER DONE SO....YOU ARE LYING
***********************************************************************************************************************************************************

{Wrong, again, "Mr. Funk & Wagnall."  The word, "cliche," does not require an accent grave in English.  And, you forgot that period, again.}

ACTUALLY I USE THE MERRIAM-WEBSTER DICTIONARY AND THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF THE AMERICAN LANGUAGE........
***********************************************************************************************************************************************************

{I've never made any "claim to fame."  Contrary to what is stated here, it took a dozen years to put every Delaware entry onto 6,299 index cards, edit the spelling, and type up the manuscript--while working my regular job during the day.  This was before the general availability of personal computers.  Zeisberger's Indian Dictionary is NOT alphabetized according to the Delaware words.  Of course, you would have to have actually seen that book to know this!} 

I NEVER SAID YOU DIDN'T SPEND A LOT TIME WORKING ON YOUR CLAIM TO FAME BOOK, NOR DID I EVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ZEISBERGER'S DICTIONARY - LET ALONE WHETHER OR NOT IT'S ALPHABETIZED........ALL THAT I SAID WAS THAT YOU ADDED SOME ANNOTATIONS TO ZEISBERGER'S WORK AND RELEASED IT AS YOUR OWN, AND THAT IS EVIDENCED BY THE TITLE OF YOUR CLAIM TO FAME BOOK.........(TALK ABOUT BACKTALKING AND WEASEL WORDS)...........
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************
{This is simply an out-and-out lie.  I've filed sales and use tax forms every year since my first book was published.  By the way, there are no such places as "Butler County" and "City of Butler" in New Jersey.  LOL!}


WELL.......IF THERE'S NO SUCH PLACE AS BUTLER, NEW JERSEY PERHAPS YOU NEED TO WRITE TO MR. LAMPMANN, THE BOROUGH ADMINISTRATOR, AND TELL HIM THAT THERE IS NO SUCH PLACE AS BUTLER, NEW JERSEY.........OH....AND BE SURE TO TELL THEM TO CANCEL THEIR WEBSITE:  WWW.BUTLERBOROUGH.COM


James Lampmann
Borough Administrator
admin@butlerborough.com  1 Ace Road
Butler, NJ 07405  Tel: 973-838-7200 Ext. 222
Fax: 973-838-3762 


OH….AND HERE’S A LETTER WRITTEN BY MR. WHRITENOUR…….TAKE NOTE OF HOW HE SIGNED OFF ON IT……..
Friends:
I am a direct descendant of Peter Mabey, whose farmstead in Park Ridge is now to be demolished. There must be hundreds of his descendants in North Jersey, alone; but what can we do? I haven't any money, and haven't any right to tell people what to do with their own land. It sickens me to think that this farm wasn't already designated a historic landmark. History, in New Jersey, means nothing. Peter was undoubtedly a loyalist, masquerading as a minuteman, during the Revolutionary War. His son, Abraham, the spy who made the massacre of the light horse militia, in Herring's barn, possible. But, this IS a historic place. I'm sorry this has to happen, but who really cares enough to save it? With regret,

Ray Whritenour
Butler, NJ

HOW IS IT THAT HE SIGNS OFF AS COMING FROM A PLACE HE SAYS DOES NOT EXIST??
AND HOW COULD HIS MOTHER, EMMA WHRITENOUR, SERVE ON A BOARD OF EDUCATION FOR A CITY THAT DOES NOT EXIST???
WHOSE LYING RAY???
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************

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#14 Oct-30-2011 12:06:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4342
Website

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

tn_metis wrote:

I would like to take just a moment to respond to Mr. Whritenour's comments on my earlier exposč of him...........His words are copied and pasted, in some cases along with my original remarks, and my comments follow in upper case letters........these will be my last words on the subject..............

Swarthmore college - a rather prestigious and respected college - offers a course in the Lënape language. The text materials used in the course were assembled by Billy Buefeathers {should be "Blue Feather"--not "Buefeathers."} and Shelly Depaul {should be "DePaul"}, and the course is taught by Ms. Depaul {should be "DePaul"}. Now I think you and I can agree as to the lack of legitimacy of Mr. Bluefeathers {should be "Blue Feather"} and Ms. Depaul {should be "DePaul"}, so the mere fact that a respected institution or individual uses a particular source is not necessarily a verification of that source's expertise or legitimacy.  {What "respected individual" used these sources?  You list only an institution.}  {By the way, Blue Feather had nothing to do with this language program.}

I STAND CORRECTED ON THE ISSUE OF BILLY BLUE FEATHERS.......IT WAS IN FACT ROBERT RUTH.......I MIS-SPOKE BY INDICATING BLUE FEATHERS INSTEAD OF RUTH AS  CONTRIBUTING TO THE MATERIALS USED BY MS. DEPAUL IN HER LANGUAGE COURSE...........I CLEARLY STATED INSTITUTIONS OR INDIVIDUALS.........SWARTHMORE WAS MERELY ONE EXAMPLE OF AN INSTITUTION OR INDIVIDUAL - IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE POINT THAT WAS BEING MADE............NOR WILL YOUR WEASEL WORDS (TO QUOTE YOUR OWN WORDS)
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************

What "weasel words"? I asked you: "What 'respected individual' used these sources?' You list only an institution." Where are the "weasel words" in this? Are you going to answer the question, or will you continue to skirt the issue? I listed many well-known and respected academics that consult me on Delaware language matters. You've not named a single person, among all these anonymous people you claim know so much. You call them:

"a retired PhD. professor of linguistics and German at the University of Memphis"

"Dr. C-- from the University of Memphis"

"Dr. G--, an Italian linguistic PhD., who specializes, in sub-dialects, and teaches foreign languages to Italian students"

"two linguistic PhD's and a native german citizen, who happens to have a degree in anthropology"

"a published biologist with degrees in molecular biology, evolutionary biology, certification in bio-technology, and who has taught biology at both the high school and college levels (SUNY)"

"published professionals with MS and PhD. degrees"

You won't even say who you are. (As if we didn't know, already.) What's more, you give vague citations to sources, saying they can be found in this or that institution, but don't give manuscript numbers or book titles, etc. In short, there is absolutely no way anyone can check anything you say about the people and written sources you claim as authorities! This, while I have named everyone, every institution, and every source to whom, or to which, I've appealed as a source of authority.

I see your list of accomplishments, and have this to say.   {This should end in a colon, not a period.}

NO...I INTENDED IT TO BE A PERIOD, AND A PERIOD IS ACCEPTABLE PUNCTUATION THERE.  PUNCTUATION IS OFTEN USED TO ESTABLISH - AND PERHAPS THIS ISN'T THE RIGHT TERM - READING TEMPO, TONE, EMPHASIS, AND SUCH......IT IS A COMMON PRACTICE IN DIFFERENT FORMS OF LITERATURE AND PROSE.
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************

Trivial. (You're wrong, though.)

{"Linguistics" is not my "field," so I obviously don't think that.  The Northern Unami dialect of Delaware is my "field."  In that field, I claim a greater expertise, by far, than you and/or your Ph.D. linguists.}

YES I KNOW......YOU THINK YOU KNOW MORE THAN, PH.D.'S, RESPECTED PROFESSIONALS WITH DECADES OF TEACHING EXPERIENCE AT MAJOR UNIVERSITIES, AND NATIVE SPEAKERS, EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE NO EDUCATION, TRAINING, OR PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE IN LINGUISTICS........AND BY THE WAY THE DISCUSSION WAS ABOUT THE GERMANIC SPELLINGS (NOT THE LENAPE SPELLINGS).....(TALK ABOUT BACKTALKING AND WEASEL WORDS).......JUST A REMINDER - 1 OF THE PROFESSORS I WORKED WITH HAS A PH.D. IN LINGUISTICS, AND A PH.D. IN GERMAN, THE OTHER HAS A PH.D. IN LINGUISTICS AND SPECIALIZES IN SUB-DIALECTS AND FOREIGN LANGUAGES, AND THE THIRD PERSON WHO ASSISTED ME WAS A NATIVE GERMAN WITH A DEGREE IN ANTHROPOLOGY.........I WOULD SAY THAT ANY ONE OF THEM KNOW MORE ABOUT GERMAN THAN YOU..............
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************

Ask your professors what characterizes the German used by Moravian missionaries from many different German-speaking areas of Europe as "Moravian German."  Most of the Delaware-speaking Moravians were NOT from Moravia!   Only Zeisberger was from Moravia.  The other seven who have written works in Delaware were from Thuringia, Denmark, Württemburg, Prussia, England (family not from Moravia), Pennsylvania (family from Poland), and Pennsylvania (family from Pfalz).  Moravia is simply where the church originated. It's not where all its members originated!

According to a published biologist with degrees in molecular biology, evolutionary biology, certification in bio-technology, and who has taught biology at both the high school and college levels (SUNY), there are NO racial or ethnic markers in DNA. An individual’s race or ethnicity CANNOT be determined by the individual’s DNA alone. The companies that advertise that they can do so are scams.  {Wrong.  This is just out-and-out balderdash.  There are many racial ancestry-informative markers in DNA, and some ancestry-determinative markers.  (This is the kind of knock on DNA tests one might expect from someone whose test showed no American Indian ancestry.)}

AND ONCE AGAIN YOU KNOW MORE THAN A PUBLISHED BIOLOGIST WITH DEGREES IN MOLECULAR BIOLOGY, EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY, CERTIFICATION IN BIOTECHNOLOGY, AND WHO HAS TAUGHT AT BOTH THE HIGH SCHOOL LEVEL AND AT ONE OF THE LARGEST UNIVERSITY SYSTEMS IN THE NATION (SUNY)..........BTW...WHAT ARE YOUR OWN CREDENTIALS IN BIOLOGY????

This will serve to answer this particular nonsense: http://woodlandindians.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9270

(YOU EVEN CLAIM TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT I'VE HAD ANY DNA TESTING...........IT MUST BE NICE TO KNOW EVERYTHING)
************************************************************************ ********************************************************************************

I didn't say "you." I said, "someone."  Quite a difference!

And on another date, “Sky," here are my answers (inclosed in triple brackets). {{{Yes. And, if you take the time to actually read MY posts you'll see that I NEVER claimed to be an American Indian}}}. (It’s spelled enclosed not inclosed…I’m surprised a language expert such as Mr. Whritenour wouldn’t know that)  {Look it up, "Noah Webster."  The word is "inclosed."  Just a variant spelling.  We smart people know this.  By the way, you need a period at the end of that sentence.}

ACTUALLY I USE THE MERRIAM-WEBSTER DICTIONARY AND THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF THE AMERICAN LANGUAGE........
********************************************************************************************************************************************************

So?


{I don't believe I've ever launched a "vicious personal attack" against anyone.  I did write unfavorable reviews of your two books, as well as those of others, so readers could be wary of all the terrible mistakes in those works.  Those weren't "personal attacks."  They were objective critiques.}

SOME YEARS AGO YOU MADE THE FOLLOWING REMARKS AGAINST THE AUTHOR OF A BOOK YOU WERE 'CRITIQUING'....."let me jsut say i think youre a fake.  you are a plagarist"........"did ya skate thru college pagarizing everyones work as well?"......."ya probably would of pawned all this info off as youre own."

THOSE DO NOT SOUND LIKE 'OBJECTIVE CRITIQUES' OF THE BOOK IN QUESTION, BUT RATHER LIKE PERSONAL ATTACKS AGAINST THE AUTHOR.........WHEN YOU STATE YOU'VE NEVER DONE SO....YOU ARE LYING
***********************************************************************************************************************************************************

Uh...  Those aren't my remarks, "Sherlock." Those remarks were made by Levi Randoll, an enrolled member of the Delaware Tribe of Indians, headquartered in Bartlesville, Oklahoma. Try to get your copy-and-paste stuff, from years ago, better organized!

{Wrong, again, "Mr. Funk & Wagnall."  The word, "cliche," does not require an accent grave in English.  And, you forgot that period, again.}

ACTUALLY I USE THE MERRIAM-WEBSTER DICTIONARY AND THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF THE AMERICAN LANGUAGE........
***********************************************************************************************************************************************************

I reiterate:  So?

{I've never made any "claim to fame."  Contrary to what is stated here, it took a dozen years to put every Delaware entry onto 6,299 index cards, edit the spelling, and type up the manuscript--while working my regular job during the day.  This was before the general availability of personal computers.  Zeisberger's Indian Dictionary is NOT alphabetized according to the Delaware words.  Of course, you would have to have actually seen that book to know this!} 

I NEVER SAID YOU DIDN'T SPEND A LOT TIME WORKING ON YOUR CLAIM TO FAME BOOK, NOR DID I EVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT ZEISBERGER'S DICTIONARY - LET ALONE WHETHER OR NOT IT'S ALPHABETIZED........ALL THAT I SAID WAS THAT YOU ADDED SOME ANNOTATIONS TO ZEISBERGER'S WORK AND RELEASED IT AS YOUR OWN, AND THAT IS EVIDENCED BY THE TITLE OF YOUR CLAIM TO FAME BOOK.........(TALK ABOUT BACKTALKING AND WEASEL WORDS)...........
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************

That's right. You DIDN'T say any of those things, because you wanted to minimize any work I'd done and make it look as though I was taking credit for Zeisberger's own work. Anyone who has seen the book knows its authorship is fully credited to David Zeisberger, and that I took credit for what I did: the alphabetizing, editing, annotating and double indexing. Your attempts to discredit my work are pathetic.

{This is simply an out-and-out lie.  I've filed sales and use tax forms every year since my first book was published.  By the way, there are no such places as "Butler County" and "City of Butler" in New Jersey.  LOL!}


WELL.......IF THERE'S NO SUCH PLACE AS BUTLER, NEW JERSEY PERHAPS YOU NEED TO WRITE TO MR. LAMPMANN, THE BOROUGH ADMINISTRATOR, AND TELL HIM THAT THERE IS NO SUCH PLACE AS BUTLER, NEW JERSEY.........OH....AND BE SURE TO TELL THEM TO CANCEL THEIR WEBSITE:  WWW.BUTLERBOROUGH.COM


James Lampmann
Borough Administrator
admin@butlerborough.com  1 Ace Road
Butler, NJ 07405  Tel: 973-838-7200 Ext. 222
Fax: 973-838-3762 


OH….AND HERE’S A LETTER WRITTEN BY MR. WHRITENOUR…….TAKE NOTE OF HOW HE SIGNED OFF ON IT……..
Friends:
I am a direct descendant of Peter Mabey, whose farmstead in Park Ridge is now to be demolished. There must be hundreds of his descendants in North Jersey, alone; but what can we do? I haven't any money, and haven't any right to tell people what to do with their own land. It sickens me to think that this farm wasn't already designated a historic landmark. History, in New Jersey, means nothing. Peter was undoubtedly a loyalist, masquerading as a minuteman, during the Revolutionary War. His son, Abraham, the spy who made the massacre of the light horse militia, in Herring's barn, possible. But, this IS a historic place. I'm sorry this has to happen, but who really cares enough to save it? With regret,

Ray Whritenour
Butler, NJ

HOW IS IT THAT HE SIGNS OFF AS COMING FROM A PLACE HE SAYS DOES NOT EXIST??
AND HOW COULD HIS MOTHER, EMMA WHRITENOUR, SERVE ON A BOARD OF EDUCATION FOR A CITY THAT DOES NOT EXIST???
WHOSE LYING RAY???
*********************************************************************************************************************************************************

I see you've been scrounging around on the internet for any tidbit of negative information you can find about me. Good luck with that! All this verbiage, for nothing! There is no "City of Butler." There is a "Borough of Butler." In New Jersey, these terms have very specific legal meanings, which determine the type of government employed in each municipality. Butler is NOT a "city," a "town," a "township," a "village," etc. It is a "borough." 

Geez! Will you give up? Here's an idea: Why not post some of your own Delaware language work, so we can all have a look at what a good Lenape scholar can contribute to our knowledge? You claim to be helping all these colleges and universities with their Delaware materials. Why not show the rest of us?

Last edited by sschkaak (Oct-30-2011 03:48:pm)

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#15 Oct-30-2011 03:55:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4342
Website

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

I must have missed the part in boldface type, below, when replying to that last post of tn_metis:

"YOU THINK YOU KNOW MORE THAN, PH.D.'S, RESPECTED PROFESSIONALS WITH DECADES OF TEACHING EXPERIENCE AT MAJOR UNIVERSITIES, AND NATIVE SPEAKERS"

There are no "native speakers" of Mission Delaware (Northern Unami).  The last fluent speaker died about a century ago. 

(Of course, maybe you meant "native speakers" of German.  If so, I answered that.)

Last edited by sschkaak (Oct-30-2011 04:00:pm)

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#16 Nov-01-2011 11:21:pm

tn_metis
Visitor
Registered: Sep-22-2011
Posts: 20

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

Ray…since you’re so enthralled by infantile semantic games, here you go…..

According to Webster’s New World Dictionary

Definition of a borough -  “ A self-governing incorporated town

Definition of a town - “1) a concentration of houses, etc. somewhat larger than a village, 2) a city  3) a township

Definition of a city - an incorporated municipality with boundaries and powers defined by State charter

And according to Collins English Dictionary, Complete and Unabridged 10th edition

A borough is defined as:  (in the US) a self-governing incorporated municipality

So, let me see here…a borough is an incorporated municipality, a city is an incorporated municipality, and a town can be a city too,  and a municipality is the same as a borough, city, or town………sounds to me like a borough is the same thing as a city - what was that old saying……a rose by any other name is still a rose…………

According to Webster’s New World Thesaurus….Municipality = district = village = borough = city = town

And according to Thesaurus.com….

Synonyms for borough:  burghal, CITY civic, civil, community, corporate, domestic, home, incorporated, internal, local, metropolitan, native, public, TOWN, urban

Synonyms for town: apple, boondocks, BOROUGH, burg, CITY, hamlet, metropolis, municipality, seat, sticks, township, whistle-stop

Definition of a synonym - a word having the same meaning as another.

Seems to me that if borough, city, and town are all synonyms for each other, and synonyms are words that mean the same, then a borough and a city are the same thing.

Different states have different systems……for example in Texas counties are divided into precincts, and there are no incorporated villages, only incorporated cities…..while in New York, counties are divided into towns, and there are both incorporated villages and incorporated cities.  The precincts in Texas serve the same function as the towns in New York, just as cities in Texas and New York serve the same function as boroughs in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. .  All these political sub-divisions may differ in minute technicalities in definition and name, but they are functionally the same, and operate the same under color of law.

Since the terms borough, city, and town all mean the same thing, I simply use the term I am most accustomed to.
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And as far as your various DNA  postings around the web.......Here are some research results regarding your so-called DNA experts and opinions……
(the following is what I discovered on my own........I have asked my biology "consultant" for clarification on some issues and am awaiting her reply)

23andMe……….a private corporation in California which allegedly does ancestral DNA verification………..23andMe has been barred from “practicing” (if you will) in 25 states including New York because of their lack of appropriate training, licensing, and affiliation with appropriate medical physicians or authorities …….

DNAPrint Euro-Test………a “test” developed by Charles Kerchner…a self admitted amateur and hobbyist with no formal education or training in biology or genetics…..

Autosomal……are non-sex chromosomes…….in other words they are simply all chromosomes not related to determining sex…

Mongolian Blue Spots…….have nothing to due directly with race or ethnicity….it is a skin condition ( Congenital dermal melanocytosis or  Dermal melanocytos) which is seen most commonly on darker skinned people….it is also seen on 10% of all light skinned and Caucasian peoples……they are most commonly found on the back, buttocks, base of spine, shoulders, and occasionally other body areas……..The spots often fade in a few years and are almost always gone by adolescence.  (Source: Kevin Berman, MD, PhD, Atlanta Center for Dermatologic Disease, Atlanta, GA. Review provided by VeriMed Healthcare Network. Also reviewed by David Zieve, MD, MHA, Medical Director, A.D.A.M., Inc. )


And from Dr. Greene, Pediatrician….(www.drgreene.com)
Despite the name, Mongolian spots have no known anthropologic significance, except for being more common in darker-skinned infants.  Mongolian spots are nothing more than dense collections of melanocytes, the skin cells which contain melanin, the normal pigment of the skin. When the melanocytes are close to the surface, they look deep brown. The deeper they are in the skin, the more bluish they look. Mongolian spots are present at birth, and most of them fade(at least somewhat) by age two. Most have completely disappeared by age five. If Mongolian spots remain at puberty, they are likely to be permanent. Fewer than five percent of children with Mongolian spots still have any by adulthood. Those who do tend to be the ones with multiple, widespread spots, or with spots in unusual locations.

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In regards to the individuals I consulted with.....

1st.......When I referred to native speakers, I was referring to native German speakers, as I have said more than once, and I made clear, on more than occasion, that the individuals I mentioned were resources for the German language, and linguistics in general - not for the Lënape language....for you to spin it into referring to native Lënape speakers  is - your own words - weasel words, and a deliberate obfuscation of what was said........

Those I consulted with are Dr. Leo Connolly, Ph.D. linguistics and German, retired professor of linguistics and German at the Univerasity of Memphis;  Dr. Elena Guzzetta, Ph.D. linguistics, (specializes in sub-dialects), teaches linguistics and foreign languages, Udine, Italy;  and Uwe Johansson, anthropologist, Nortorf, Germany - native German speaker...........the reference materials used for the Lënape language  were by Dean, Blalock, Rementer, Zeisberger, Brinton, and Harrington, with reviews conducted by members of the (Bessie) Snake-Chalepah family, Anadarko, OK......

The individual I consulted regarding DNA matters is Ms. Eloiza Davis, BS. molecular biology, MS. evolutionary biology, certification in bio-technology, taught high school biology in Connecticut, and taught biology lab and oversaw student research projects at SUNY.


RW says, "You won't even say who you are. (As if we didn't know, already).........What does it matter??  Besides...if you already know, then there's no need for me to say is there??...........But I guess if it bothers you this much, then maybe you're not so sure afterall, are you??..........You can just call me Odell - my paternal family name.

RW says, "What's more, you give vague citations to sources, saying they can be found in this or that institution, but don't give manuscript numbers or book titles, etc. In short, there is absolutely no way anyone can check anything you say about the people and written sources you claim as authorities!"

I did my homework...why should I do yours too?????.........Just do some research on the web........that's what I did and I found them.....you're so much smarter than I am you should have no problem finding them.............and I even gave you a place to start from....that's more information than I had when I started.............

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#17 Nov-02-2011 05:54:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4342
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Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

MT:  Whatever.  I'm not going to waste any more of my time responding to irrelevant trivialities.  Any time you'd like to discuss the Lenape or their language, just jump right in.  If I feel you're wrong about any of it, I'll let you know, so you can correct your errors.  I'd hope someone would do the same for me.

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#18 Nov-02-2011 07:27:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11094

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

I'm not quoting that whole head throbbing post but this is actually amusing.

MT writes:

RW says, "You won't even say who you are. (As if we didn't know, already).........What does it matter??  Besides...if you already know, then there's no need for me to say is there??...........But I guess if it bothers you this much, then maybe you're not so sure afterall, are you??..........You can just call me Odell - my paternal family name.

What does it matter??

Well.. you come on here in full blown attack mode against one of our members stating all your qualifications for Lenape language? Um yeah it matters.

But I guess if it bothers you this much, then maybe you're not so sure afterall, are you??

Uh yeah we all know, and why on earth you are attempting to make this big effort to hide the fact, I haven't a clue! Unless of course you are aware that the LNP read here and may catch on to your efforts to debunk Shelley. You're a little late to the game if that's it. Or..It could be that you just don't want to admit your real identity because then everyone would know your past. I dunno, did you stumble in here and find Mr. Whritenour's postings and think you'd fill your void by challenging them? After making two accounts here none the less.

Anywho MT, as  sschkaak said please go ahead and post what you find wrong with any Lenape language posting here or anywhere for that matter. You've made a grand entrance, how's about settling in and making a contribution.

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#19 Nov-05-2011 12:25:pm

tn_metis
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Registered: Sep-22-2011
Posts: 20

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

tree hugger.............

i have not tried to hide my identity.........i merely though it amusing that mr. whritenour claimed to know who i was when i never identified myself by name.........i was doing 2 things by delaying revealing my name......1) to show by one more example the utter arrogance and "i know everything no matter what the topic, and no matter what credentials those who disagree with me may have"  attitude that mr. whritenour has............you've seen here that he claims to know more about german and linguistics than 2 phd's in linguistics and german and a native german....he claims to know about  biology and genetics than a multi degreed biologist whose degrees and professional certification (molecular biology and evolutionary biology, bio technology) deal specifically with genetics and dna.........and he claimed to know who i was even when i finally revealed my paternal family name - odell (1st name is unimportant).......when in fact he and i have never met or correseponded............and 2) to get under his skin a little......

as far as debunking depaul.......all i said was that i felt mr. whritenour and i agreed on the legitimacy question of the lnp - a group that has no recognition status, and that the leaders have been the subject of many discrediting remarks on this forum and others..............i personally have no connection with any organization or individuals claiming lënape heritage in pennsylvania, but i have researched and read about a great many of them and talked with a number of them - which frankly is why i have no connections with them..........i have read the text materials that ms. depaul uses in her language course at swarthmore, which i do think are highly inadequate........i don't believe that equates with debunking her personally..................

as far as mr. writenour goes...........i have never claimed that he has not put in a lot of work and effort in his projects, nor that he has no knowledge of the lënape language.........i have said that he continues the germanic spellings as recorded by zeisberger and others, and that he personally attacks anyone who disagrees with him, rather than restricting his critiques to the materials in question........i have said, and demonstrated by quoting his own words, that he uses obfuscation, paradoxical statements and other inconsistancies, and childish rhetorical games, to defend his opinions and discredit others, and set himself up as the one and only, ultimate, and indisputable authority on the lënape language - and any other topic............my intent was NOT to discredit him, but rather to point out that, despite his own opinion of himself, that he does not know everything about everything, and that just maybe there are others in the world that know as much or more than he...........

odell

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#20 Nov-05-2011 07:45:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11094

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

roll Sigh

To be honest I couldn't get through that whole thing. I'm not sure what your agenda is or why but so far all I've seen is totally confusing, side stepping, back tracking posts. How's Doris these days btw? Doing well?

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#21 Nov-05-2011 08:26:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4342
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Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

Messochwen Teme (Robert Davis, tn_metis, odell) writes, concerning myself:

"he does not know everything about everything, and  ...just maybe there are others in the world that know as much or more than he."

Alas!  Fortunately or unfortunately, when it comes to Mission Delaware or the Northern Unami dialect of Delaware, there is nobody in this world who knows as much as me.  I'm sorry if you can't handle the truth, but there it is.

As I once told Helen Dagner, "I don't know everything, but I know what I know."

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#22 Nov-05-2011 08:41:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11094

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

sschkaak wrote:

Messochwen Teme (Robert Davis, tn_metis, odell) writes, concerning myself:

"he does not know everything about everything, and  ...just maybe there are others in the world that know as much or more than he."

Alas!  Fortunately or unfortunately, when it comes to Mission Delaware or the Northern Unami dialect of Delaware, there is nobody in this world who knows as much as me.  I'm sorry if you can't handle the truth, but there it is.

As I once told Helen Dagner, "I don't know everything, but I know what I know."

I second this! big_smile

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#23 Nov-12-2011 03:23:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4342
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Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

tree hugger wrote:

Anywho MT, as  sschkaak said please go ahead and post what you find wrong with any Lenape language posting here or anywhere for that matter. You've made a grand entrance, how's about settling in and making a contribution.

In like a lion and out like a lamb.

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#24 Nov-12-2011 03:42:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
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Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

Exactly. I think he figured out we couldn't be sold on his diatribe.

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#25 Dec-07-2011 02:50:pm

tn_metis
Visitor
Registered: Sep-22-2011
Posts: 20

Re: The Lenape: Their History and Culture - a review

i've looked at the review of mt's book on here regarding his statements about the reservation system, or lack thereof as the case may be,  and i have to say that he is quite correct in his comments.......the reservation system is a federal system and did not exist until the 1860's - 1862 i believe - when gen. carlson, commanding general of the dept of new mexico, originated the concept and requested from pres. lincoln authority to initiate the program as an experiment.....gen. carlson recommended the navajo and chiricahua as the first nations to be placed on these reservations........he received the appropriate authorization and launched his initial campaign against the navajo, which resulted in what we know as the bosque redondo...............
prior to this, indian land affairs were a state issue, and the states did not create a true reservation system........the states did by treaty, set aside boundaried areas for the habitation of the indians, but offered no regulatory, administrative, or police type protections to these areas....these areas were often encroached on by settlers, resulting in conflicts - mostly legal in which the indians invariably lost - and movement of these boundaried areas from place to place -------the whipple report of 1888/89 discusses this problem fairly well, as do a number of other governmental report of that era...........it was not until after 1888/89 that these areas eventually became a part of the federal reservation system......in fact a 1943 report to the nys legislature raised the question of whether state authority or federal authority over these areas - at least in new york - should take precedence.......if these areas were in fact a part of the federal reservation system that questiion would not have existed, nor would nys have any need or authority to initiate the report in questiion......a reservation is legally defined as "an area of land managed by an american indian tribe under the united states department of interior's bureau of indian affairs"  since these state parcels were not under the doi-bia, they did not meet the legal defintion of a reservation....as such mt was absolutely correct in his statements, albeit he could have gone into more detail or explanation to alleviate any possible confusion............
well i'm on the subject of mt's book............he stated that moravian missions existed in new york state until the early 1900's - again he is correct except that he failed to update his terminology.......the moravians had by that time become known as the episcopal church and the episcopal church did in fact administer government owned residential schools well into the 1900's as did the jesuits, quakers, and others.........a part of the contracts between the government and the various sects that administered the schools, was to allow the sect to propolgate their particular beliefs as a part of the required cirriculum......this contractual relationship between the government and the religious sects is explained in mcColl's report on residential industrial schools of 1879, and is substantiated by the whipple report and other governmental reports from the late 1800's and early - mid 1900's.............since these school's were administered by a religious sect who enforced their particular beliefs it's easy to see how they could be called missions........i don't think mt made a mistake of fact, merely a possible mistake in title.........[the thomas school was a bit different in that it taught both catholic and protestant classes - one or the other being mandatory on the students]

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