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#1 Nov-02-2009 05:16:pm

lenape
Member
Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

"United Eastern Lenape Nation"

Okay, I tried to deal with this in a “nice” way, but now I seem to be getting some interesting phone calls , so I will make this a public affair, the following mis-information, cultural theft, and outright lies are from the site: http://ueln.com/home

  For educational purposes, that is to educate folks as to what is NOT Lenape, we will start with the first page, or “home” where there is a copy of some art work by Sauts, used without his permission, the page reads:
(my comments will be in bold, and cynical as always)


LENAPE VISIONARY
by
William Albert Sauts Netamuxwe Bock


The artist is a Lenape (Delaware) Indian descendant whose Indian name, Netamuxwe, is translated as "he who walks in the lead."  His knowledge of the traditions and folk-lore of his people is extensive, and this particular illustration is rich in Lenape symbolism.
(This is a matter of opinion!)

It represents a Lenape Ma-ta-en-noo (Medicine Man) recalling the vision that came to him in his youth, and from which he received his healing powers.  The wolf tattoo on his forehead signifies his clan affiliation; the shell necklace and earrings, and the robe with bird designs and squares are of traditional Lenape design.

Moving clockwise in the drawing, beginning at twelve o'clock, one can recognize the following:

An owl in a shagbark hickory, symbol of Mah-tah-pah-se-kun ("bad medicine").
(NO WHERE in Lenape culture is the Owl, or the hickory, of any species associated with “bad medicine, the belief about the owl being “evil” or “bad” derives from a pan-Indian belief, probably coming from either the Cherokee or Lakota belief, but NOT Lenape, in fact it is quite the opposite, and certain species of the hickory are used regularly as medicine and tonics.

Below the owl is a planet, an Elder Brother who supplies light at night. 

Moving behind the tree, some shadowy Thunder Beings who live in mountains.

A forked drumstick, carved with a human face, which is used to beat the deerskin drum during the Big House Ceremony.

A prayer stick extending beyond the drumstick and crossing behind the illustration, the other end appearing at the lower left.

An Indian dressed in a bearskin robe, wearing a wooden mask and holding a turtle shell rattle.  He represents the M'sing, Keeper of the Game.

One of the twin bears that appeared in the Medicine Man's vision, and an egg, symbol of life.
(Never heard anything about an “egg” being a Lenape “symbol of Life”, the bears in Sauts art work, and he used many, were actually symbolic of a business venture he attempted called “Sky Bear” and was to sell his art work, as well as the known significance of the bear I Lenape culture.)

Lower right, upside down, a ceremonial Big House with smoke from two fires escaping from the roof, and nearby a deer pole where meat is hung, all resting on a string of white wampum beads.

The second bear that appeared in his vision.
(again a marketing pitch)

A turtle, signifying the earth, with a tree growing on its back.

A goose, another element from the vision, with a seashell halo -- symbol of the Indian attachment to both land and sea.
(sea shell halo, or halo in general has no meaning in Lenape life)

Kee-shay-lum-moo-kawng, the Creator, wearing an eagle-feather hat, his outstretched arms embracing the earth.
(Errr, it is actually a turkey feather crown, NOT eagle feathers, LOL!  NO Lenape, nor Sauts, would attempt to draw a human image depicting Creator, is “taboo” to attempt this, the figure spoken about is actually from an earlier painting of his and “depicts” a “keeper of the East”, possibly the “spirit of the East”, though even that would be “taboo” to many!)

A buffalo on the moon, foreseeing the day when the Lenape would move from the East to the Western plains.
(the buffalo were in the East at one point, woodlands buffalo, Sauts use of the Buffalo in his art work was symbolic of a specific ceremony that he did/does that was learned from the western Delaware, much like that of the Ghost Dance only whith his own personal touch.)

The lithograph is made directly from the pen and ink illustration drawn for the title page of the book Magic Medicines of the Indians, written by C.A. Weslager. “


From their history page: http://ueln.com/ueln_history

History of United Eastern Lenape Nation (aka U.E.L.N.)
Disclaimer: There has been voices of concern that this history is not accurate, we are investigating this, but this is the way we have been taught and how our history is written down. Updates will be made if we do discover any inaccuracies in the history.
(added after my first attempt to correct this train wreck)



Grandmother Nora Thompson Dean, a Clanmother from Oklahoma Eastern Delaware Nation, sent Sam Hanna Grey Wolf to Pennsylvania.  Grandmother Nora Thompson Dean’s hope was to have Sam Grey Wolf gather the Lenape (Delaware) people and form a nation in the Lenapehocking lands.  As Sam Grey Wolf gathered people, he formed the Eastern Lenape Bands.  During this time (1950s), Sam struggled to bring in people of Lenape ancestry.  This task was slow moving but those who started walking with Chief Sam Grey Wolf worked at reviving their culture in the Lenape way.  Acceptance was difficult because the State of Pennsylvania and later Ohio didn’t recognize any tribe of Indians.  It was Grandmother Nora’s preference that we called ourselves Lenape which was our original name.
(1.In Lenape culture this would be “Aunt” Nora Thompson Dean, more “culturally correct”
2.  Mrs Dean was NOT a Clan Mother, Traditional Lenape did ot have clan mothers, was not part of our culture.
3. Mrs. Dean DID NOT work with Sam, at all on “uniting” any Lenape Descendents, Sam and Nora did not get along at all, from a very early time they had a falling out and did not associate!  Furthermore Mrs. Dean DID NOT condone nor agree with making fake “tribes or Nations”, and spoke out about wanna-be “Indians”
4 “Lenapehocking lands” makes no sense, “Lenape – real/origional human, hokink – land(locative)
5 This train wreck did not begin in the 50’s, Sam was not in the East I the 50’s.
6. Sam did not start reviving anything in a “Lenape way”, Sam promoted pan-Indianisim all the way up to his last years, then he decided this was not such a good idea.
7.  Again Nora Thompson Dean DID NOT prefer these folks call themselves ANYTHING, she was NOT part of this train wreck!  Sam chose the name Lenape “such and such” (it changed so many times) because he had this “vision” of being “traditional” and all that, and he chose the origional name of the people, “Lenape”.




Upon arrival from England, Tom Weston became the Governor of the territory (Virginia) and when he landed, he pushed his sword into the ground and proclaimed that this land is now DeLawar in his name as Lord DeLawar.  He also said that those savages will be my people and we will call them DeLawar.  Thus the Lenapehocking land and the Natives in the area were known as the Delaware Indians. 

As Billy Blue Feather recalls, “it was in the late 80’s when UELN was formed.  Chief Sam Grey Wolf was successful in finding Lenape people and these were the first Lenape to be a part of the United Eastern Lenape Nation.  However, along the way, the Chief found many people who were not full blooded Lenape who wanted to learn the culture and live the Red Road.  He decided that he would adopt these people and was given permission from Oklahoma to do so.  Over the years people have had disagreements and power struggles and this has evolved into a variety of Lenape nations or groups throughout Pennsylvania and Ohio and the surrounding states.
Lenape don’t follow the “Red Road” unless this is in reference to war, the “Red Road” is a Lakota thing accepted as pan-Indian.  While Sam knew and dealt with folks in Oklahoma, he was not, nor could he be given “permission” to adopt anyone, he was not a registered member of either community, of Lenape, from Oklahoma, Sam did what he did because he felt he should, not because anyone endorsed it, “allowed” it, or any nonsense like that!

United Eastern Lenape Nation is a Pennsylvania Domestic Non-Profit Group.  We are centered in Sharon, Pa. with “River of Many Fish Village” serving as a satellite to the Nation.  Many programs have been provided to local and surrounding area schools, senior centers, libraries, Girl and Boy Scouts troops and a variety of organizations in the communities.  We have had 2 powwows in Kingsville, 5 in Williamsfield, and July 17th will begin the second annual gathering at Lake Village Campgrounds and Resort in Andover, Ohio.


With Sam Gray Wolf, we share the dream to develop a piece of land into a
“living Lenape village” which will be used to educate the people in the communities.  This will also provide a home and employment to the people involved.  Currently we are in the process of gathering all of the necessary tools to make this dream a reality, not only for our people, but for people of all nations to have a place to gather and educate one another in the ways of the original people of this land.  In this we seek to share our heritage and our future with all of the people of the land so that we can truly be one people, for all nations.

( I would hope that before these folks try to “educate” anyone they figure out their own history, and stop tossing around names that they read about, or people they wished the met.  This “history” is very much like that of Ray “Miquon” Johnson’s, and he acknowledged lying about it and removed it from the web, shortly before getting the boot from the organization he swindled into believing his craziness)
other areas of mis-information include: http://ueln.com/mission_statement
(bla…Bla…bla, then…)

The UELN is striving to become recognized as a sovereign nation (Native American) without boundaries which will enable us to obtain social and economic benefits for our people.
(despite the statement earlier that they came into being in the 80’s?  It takes more than a few disgruntled boy and girl scouts to make up a “nation” and get recognition!)
from the “news” page: http://ueln.com/news
“A Message from Chief Billy Blue Feather

It was a strong spiritual weekend.  All were in attendance at the gathering.  The Thunder Beings gave us some sky juice for our Mother Earth.  We had some very special guests from the Munsee-Delaware Indian Nation – USA and also from the Eastern Delaware Nation.  We had Cherokee, Apache, Lenape, Seneca, Osage, Shawnee, Dakota, Lakota and many many other Nations represented at the Healing of Mother Earth Native American Festival.  There were many craft people with their vending stands, we made some new friends and renewed some old friendships.  The feeling of Good Medicine was everywhere.”

(Billy Little Weasel’s group, as well as the EDN misfits, must have been a real “twinkie fest”!  Both of these groups are frauds, and pretty well documented ones, EDN stole a real Indians photo, plastered it all over their site and hide behind that, Billy Little Weasel, the pot growing “Chief”, was labeled a fraud by the very same Mrs. Dean, he was in OK stealing histories and names from the local library!)
(new “Chief”)


“Sakima Bob Quiet Wolf (Chitkwesi Teme)”
(“to be quiet, a wolf”????  needs a little language help I guess, it is grammatically incorrect, as with all of these “shake and bake groups”)
(also…)

Clan Mothers Corner

Dear Family,
            Thank you for your encouragement and your unselfish help over the past couple of months.  This has been a very busy summer with all weekends scheduled.  I appreciate your participation in whatever way you chose to participate at the powwows, the 1-day events in Greenville and in Mantua.  I appreciate your steadfastness.  I know it hasn’t been easy to schedule these events in with your family life.
            My heartfelt gratitude is extended to Chief Billy Blue Feather for his leadership of the United Eastern Lenape Nation.  Chief Blue Feather will continue to share his knowledge with us in the future.  Without him we would not be here today.  He and Pam took over for Chief Sam Grey Wolf and kept United Eastern Lenape Nation together as best they could using the Wampums, including the Aims & Goals and keeping in mind the goals that Chief Grey Wolf had set for U.E.L.N.
            We have been an example to others in our use of the Wampum Laws.  As most of you know, Ray Johnson is addressing many tribes in the benefits of bringing back the Wampum Laws and living according to them.  Chief Blue Feather, Quiet Wolf and I have been very supportive in this effort.  We hope that the outcome will bring tribes together so that we can work together with common goals. 
            I will continue to support the Chief Sam Grey Wolf Goals, the Reawakening of the Wampum Laws under the United Eastern Lenape Nation and it’s newly appointed Principal Chief, Bob Quiet Wolf Thompson.  Under Quiet Wolf’s direction, I expect to see some growth and some improvements in our Family Life.  I know that Sakima Quiet Wolf has the support of this Nation and I am honored to be his wife and the Nation’s Mother.
   
With much Love and Respect

Morning Dove
(Again, o such thin as “clan mother”, the “Wampum Laws” that they are talking about are from “Tree Beard”, AKA “Testicals on a Stick” and are not Lenape, that is a bastardized version of the Iroquois Great Law, and there of course is Mr. Johnson’s name, who didn’t know these lies sounded familiar!! )


There are for sure many, many more mistakes, lies, and "errors" in this mess, but I pointed out the main ones, another case of cultural theft!

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#2 Nov-02-2009 09:51:pm

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 966

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

lenape wrote:

from the “news” page: http://ueln.com/news
“A Message from Chief Billy Blue Feather

It was a strong spiritual weekend.  All were in attendance at the gathering.  The Thunder Beings gave us some sky juice for our Mother Earth.  We had some very special guests from the Munsee-Delaware Indian Nation – USA and also from the Eastern Delaware Nation.  We had Cherokee, Apache, Lenape, Seneca, Osage, Shawnee, Dakota, Lakota and many many other Nations represented at the Healing of Mother Earth Native American Festival.  There were many craft people with their vending stands, we made some new friends and renewed some old friendships.  The feeling of Good Medicine was everywhere.”

(Billy Little Weasel’s group, as well as the EDN misfits, must have been a real “twinkie fest”!  Both of these groups are frauds, and pretty well documented ones, EDN stole a real Indians photo, plastered it all over their site and hide behind that, Billy Little Weasel, the pot growing “Chief”, was labeled a fraud by the very same Mrs. Dean, he was in OK stealing histories and names from the local library!)
(new “Chief”)


With much Love and Respect

Morning Dove
(Again, o such thin as “clan mother”, the “Wampum Laws” that they are talking about are from “Tree Beard”, AKA “Testicals on a Stick” and are not Lenape, that is a bastardized version of the Iroquois Great Law, and there of course is Mr. Johnson’s name, who didn’t know these lies sounded familiar!! )

A little history from someone who was there. MDIN-USA is RedHawk's group, a remnant of LS's group from ten years ago. Morning Dove was a part of that group too.

In 1998, LS reappeared in PA with his MDTRIN [Munsee-Delaware Thames River Indian Nation]. I was sakima of the Lightning Valley Village at the time (yeah, yeah, I repent in sackcloth and ashes for being a wannabe) and one of my members brought LS to us. He came with members of his nation who were part of the Buffalo Village from the UELN. We all wanted to be legitimate (recognized) Indians, so we drank the Kool-Aid for a while. There was something about LS that just didn't ring true, so I followed him around for about a year trying to find someone who could corroborate his story. I was making lots of money in the computer industry back then, so I had the funds and the time to do this. During that year I met many interesting people on both ends of the "legitimate" scale: Richard Snake, Curtis Zuniga, Riverbird Woman, Hawk Pope, etc. I finally concluded that LS's story was just too vague to be believable.

For personal reasons, I left the MDIN (the Canadian Munsee had insisted that LS drop the Thames River out of his national moniker) and the Lightning Valley Village in 1999. Within a year, the MDIN had imploded and the MDIN-USA was formed and LS was expelled. So he still has one MDIN and Mother Redhawk has another. Since then, the players have all moved around some. Some people went with LS immediately, some left the area or gave up being Indian, and apparently some have emigrated back to the UELN.

At the risk of implicating myself, I have to admire the longevity of some of these groups. The UELN, EDN, Big Horn Nation, and the LNP (formerly the ELN) just keep going and going...I guess there is a limitless supply of people needing to find their Indian roots. The cast of characters changes often, but new ones come along as old ones become disillusioned and leave or defect to another group.

And if the Wampum Laws are the ones from Treebeard, they are a greatly simplified or distilled version of the Great Law. The Great Law requires a fairly large book to contain it; the Wampum Laws have twelve points and fit nicely on a small mnemonic device (unless they have expanded greatly since they were given to me a decade ago). They actually resemble the Boy Scout Law more than the Great Law.


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#3 Nov-03-2009 08:58:am

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11031

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

A little history from someone who was there. MDIN-USA is RedHawk's group, a remnant of LS's group from ten years ago. Morning Dove was a part of that group too.

hmm  LS is Munsee Delaware Indian Nation USA
     Redhawk is Munsee Delaware Nation USA

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#4 Nov-03-2009 09:46:am

lenape
Member
Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

here is their "wedding dance" roll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8p8mY3hA6Y

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#5 Nov-03-2009 09:02:pm

lenape
Member
Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

it is a "shame" they don't still have their "Traditional Lenape Sundance" over there...roll

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#6 Nov-03-2009 09:08:pm

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 966

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

tree hugger wrote:

A little history from someone who was there. MDIN-USA is RedHawk's group, a remnant of LS's group from ten years ago. Morning Dove was a part of that group too.

hmm  LS is Munsee Delaware Indian Nation USA
     Redhawk is Munsee Delaware Nation USA

You see? You can't tell the players without a score card...


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#7 Nov-03-2009 09:12:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11031

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

Suckachsinheet wrote:

tree hugger wrote:

A little history from someone who was there. MDIN-USA is RedHawk's group, a remnant of LS's group from ten years ago. Morning Dove was a part of that group too.

hmm  LS is Munsee Delaware Indian Nation USA
     Redhawk is Munsee Delaware Nation USA

You see? You can't tell the players without a score card...

I thought you were making score cards. sad

I'm still waiting for that book too. smile

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#8 Nov-04-2009 03:38:pm

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

lenape wrote:

Okay, I tried to deal with this in a “nice” way, but now I seem to be getting some interesting phone calls , so I will make this a public affair, the following mis-information, cultural theft, and outright lies are from the site: http://ueln.com/home.

That's Freaky! Right before you started this thread I was about to call you on the landline about this phonies. More of the misinformed followed by the stupid. hmm




“Sakima Bob Quiet Wolf (Chitkwesi Teme)”
[b](“to be quiet, a wolf”????  needs a little language help I guess, it is grammatically incorrect, as with all of these “shake and bake groups”)
(also…)

I translated it as "Wolf, Shut up!" lol


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
---------------------------------------------------
      Warning:  Some Profanity
This might cause you to experience reason

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#9 Nov-04-2009 05:47:pm

pepperpot
Visitor
Registered: Nov-04-2009
Posts: 1

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

i read your blog, then i went and read the website , and although i dont know either of you, it seems to me that you are a very angry person, except for the VERY FEW things you said were wrong on their website (which since you didnt post the documentation to prove your case no one knows which is correct) it seems all you did was attack them on a personal level. as far as you saying they wish they had met who they say they have, are you talking about sam grey wolf? because i knew him personally and YES HE WAS IN THAT AREA AT THE TIME THEY CLAIM so how do you know what they are saying is lies? it seems to me, not knowing them of course that these people are just trying to live a good life and honor creator, why cant you just let them do that in peace instead of attacking them. you say you tried to settle things peacefully with them, did you send them proof of the things you are saying? the reason i ask is because if you didnt you have no right to attack them this way, i would NEVER take something off my site just because someone i didnt know told me it was wrong, i would have to have proof.

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#10 Nov-04-2009 05:58:pm

lenape
Member
Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

pepperpot wrote:

i read your blog, then i went and read the website , and although i dont know either of you, it seems to me that you are a very angry person, except for the VERY FEW things you said were wrong on their website (which since you didnt post the documentation to prove your case no one knows which is correct) it seems all you did was attack them on a personal level. as far as you saying they wish they had met who they say they have, are you talking about sam grey wolf? because i knew him personally and YES HE WAS IN THAT AREA AT THE TIME THEY CLAIM so how do you know what they are saying is lies? it seems to me, not knowing them of course that these people are just trying to live a good life and honor creator, why cant you just let them do that in peace instead of attacking them. you say you tried to settle things peacefully with them, did you send them proof of the things you are saying? the reason i ask is because if you didnt you have no right to attack them this way, i would NEVER take something off my site just because someone i didnt know told me it was wrong, i would have to have proof.

I am actually very angry when people lie about my people!  EVERY word of what is posted on their site about Nora Thompson Dean is a lie!  Period, there is nothing else to say about that!  Now, as for Sam, you can PM me or email me if you don't want to post it on here, but I know Sam Hannah very well, he lived with us for a while and I stay with him, there is not too much you are gonna tell me about him, these folks have also lied about him!  They also lied about him back when they were running their new age "sun dance" and claimed that Sam told them they could, I know quite a bit about these folks, actually!  I have also been told that Sam's family contacted them and asked that the mis-information be removed, have a copy of the email, so...  they are wanna-bees

Care to introduce yourself?

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#11 Nov-04-2009 06:16:pm

Tokipahkinao
Member
Registered: Jul-22-2008
Posts: 212

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

HE! Gang,

                     I was wondering when this forum would get around to "Sauts". Or maybe you have and I missed it.

                      I considered him a real pain in the ---. as he wandered around Bucks Co., PA, dispensing HIS version of Lenape culture and history. I'll tell just one little area that always p---ed me off:

                       During one of Nora Thompson Dean's 4 trips to Bucks Co., PA, and her meetings  with the Lenape Land Assoc.,  somehow she was introduced to "Sauts", who asked her to give his family Lenape names. She did so - - and after her return to OK, started to get letters from him, who addressed her as "Aunt Nora".: normally  a Lenape term of respect for elders. In answering his letters, she in turn called him "nephew".
altho THEY WERE NOT RELATED AT ALL.
                           
                          HE took her polite gesture: "nephew" and ran with it! He LET FOLKS BELIEVE that she WAS his aunt. and often made mention, and wrote on sketches and paintings that she was really his relative.

                                                  That always bugged me.

                                                          Tokipahkinao

PS: Details from Jim Rementer

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#12 Nov-04-2009 06:21:pm

lenape
Member
Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

there is a section on here about him somewhere on woodlands.....  never heard him say they were related but I know he told everyone she "adopted" him roll, never saw mention of this on his paintings, and I have many of them, but....ya never know

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#13 Nov-04-2009 06:53:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4270
Website

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

I don't want to hijack this thread, but would simply like to note that a traditional Lenape name-giver could NOT refuse to give a name to ANYONE who asked for one.  That was one of the obligations of holding that position.  So, there was nothing particularly remarkable about this.

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#14 Nov-04-2009 06:55:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11031

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

sschkaak wrote:

I don't want to hijack this thread, but would simply like to note that a traditional Lenape name-giver could NOT refuse to give a name to ANYONE who asked for one.  That was one of the obligations of holding that position.  So, there was nothing particularly remarkable about this.

Another semi hijack, but that just explained a lot of things to me and not just about Mrs. Dean.

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#15 Nov-04-2009 07:00:pm

lenape
Member
Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

tree hugger wrote:

sschkaak wrote:

I don't want to hijack this thread, but would simply like to note that a traditional Lenape name-giver could NOT refuse to give a name to ANYONE who asked for one.  That was one of the obligations of holding that position.  So, there was nothing particularly remarkable about this.

Another semi hijack, but that just explained a lot of things to me and not just about Mrs. Dean.

since there is a high-jack going on, LOL, this very much depended on the name-giver, also, as there were traditional Delaware name-givers that would not name someone unless they were gonna "take in" that person.  NOT that I think this is what happened with Sauts, AT ALL!

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#16 Nov-04-2009 07:04:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11031

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

pepperpot wrote:

i read your blog, then i went and read the website , and although i dont know either of you, it seems to me that you are a very angry person, except for the VERY FEW things you said were wrong on their website (which since you didnt post the documentation to prove your case no one knows which is correct) it seems all you did was attack them on a personal level. as far as you saying they wish they had met who they say they have, are you talking about sam grey wolf? because i knew him personally and YES HE WAS IN THAT AREA AT THE TIME THEY CLAIM so how do you know what they are saying is lies? it seems to me, not knowing them of course that these people are just trying to live a good life and honor creator, why cant you just let them do that in peace instead of attacking them. you say you tried to settle things peacefully with them, did you send them proof of the things you are saying? the reason i ask is because if you didnt you have no right to attack them this way, i would NEVER take something off my site just because someone i didnt know told me it was wrong, i would have to have proof.

Where are my manners, welcome pepperpot. I'm confused about something though. If you don't know the UELN, and don't know us how did you come to comment on this? Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just curious.

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#17 Nov-04-2009 07:14:pm

Tokipahkinao
Member
Registered: Jul-22-2008
Posts: 212

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

HE! Lenape, and the rest of you,

                             Guess I didn't read far enough down this extensive  "story", until I just now read the tale  of the Lenape people getting (taking ?) the name "Delaware".             
                              Sir THOMAS WEST  was the royal governor of the  open land  of the colony of Virgina. - an area of no boundaries. Interested in expanding the territory  of the colony, he assigned Capt. Samuel Argall  to sail his small ship, called a pinnace (2 masted sailing ship) North along the Atlantic Ocean coastline, to search for more territory that Gov. West could claim (for his country? for himself?)
                               Capt. Argall sailed North past the Chesapeake, and came upon a large bay and river. Argall claimed them  for his boss, and decided to name them : de la Warre River and  de la Warre Bay, after one of Sir Thomas' titles: Lord de la Warre. There WERE  Lenape living in this part of their homeland,  but Capt. Argall did not consider them important.

                                  Within the year  Sir Thomas had finished his term as Royal Gov., and sailed home to England. He NEVER MET the Lenape , NEVER SAW  the bay  and/or river named for him. Some versions claim that the Lenape were so impressed with Sir Thomas, that they renamed those geographical areas after him. But there's NO "R" in their alphabet. . . . . and they didn't know him!

                                    It appears that over the years, the Europeans, unconcerned  about the Indians true name: LENAPE, (which means THE People )began calling the inhabitants along the river and bay:  "de la Warres". . . ... which became  Delawares

                                     Now there are probably some other versions of this story which may differ in some details,  but not as far out as that group's story.

                                                     Wanishi!

                                                    Tokipahkinao
                                                       ( MaryEllen Flynn)

PS: As a Fencer, I know you don't stick the point of your sword into  dirt!!!

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#18 Nov-04-2009 07:18:pm

lenape
Member
Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

Tokipahkinao wrote:

HE! Lenape, and the rest of you,

                             Guess I didn't read far enough down this extensive  "story", until I just now read the tale  of the Lenape people getting (taking ?) the name "Delaware".             
                              Sir THOMAS WEST  was the royal governor of the  open land  of the colony of Virgina. - an area of no boundaries. Interested in expanding the territory  of the colony, he assigned Capt. Samuel Argall  to sail his small ship, called a pinnace (2 masted sailing ship) North along the Atlantic Ocean coastline, to search for more territory that Gov. West could claim (for his country? for himself?)
                               Capt. Argall sailed North past the Chesapeake, and came upon a large bay and river. Argall claimed them  for his boss, and decided to name them : de la Warre River and  de la Warre Bay, after one of Sir Thomas' titles: Lord de la Warre. There WERE  Lenape living in this part of their homeland,  but Capt. Argall did not consider them important.

                                  Within the year  Sir Thomas had finished his term as Royal Gov., and sailed home to England. He NEVER MET the Lenape , NEVER SAW  the bay  and/or river named for him. Some versions claim that the Lenape were so impressed with Sir Thomas, that they renamed those geographical areas after him. But there's NO "R" in their alphabet. . . . . and they didn't know him!

                                    It appears that over the years, the Europeans, unconcerned  about the Indians true name: LENAPE, (which means THE People )began calling the inhabitants along the river and bay:  "de la Warres". . . ... which became  Delawares

                                     Now there are probably some other versions of this story which may differ in some details,  but not as far out as that group's story.

                                                     Wanishi!

                                                    Tokipahkinao
                                                       ( MaryEllen Flynn)

PS: As a Fencer, I know you don't stick the point of your sword into  dirt!!!

WANISHI M-E, I missed that "masterpiece"!!  LOL!

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#19 Nov-04-2009 08:10:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4270
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Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

lenape wrote:

tree hugger wrote:

sschkaak wrote:

I don't want to hijack this thread, but would simply like to note that a traditional Lenape name-giver could NOT refuse to give a name to ANYONE who asked for one.  That was one of the obligations of holding that position.  So, there was nothing particularly remarkable about this.

Another semi hijack, but that just explained a lot of things to me and not just about Mrs. Dean.

since there is a high-jack going on, LOL, this very much depended on the name-giver, also, as there were traditional Delaware name-givers that would not name someone unless they were gonna "take in" that person.  NOT that I think this is what happened with Sauts, AT ALL!

I speak of a "name-giver" as an "office" or, better, a "position" in Lenape society, the holder of which was called Wehawihelas ("One-who-gives-names-over-and-over").  Such an one was Mrs. Dean. 

Of course, any visionary could bestow a name; and, any Lenape could bestow a nickname.

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#20 Nov-04-2009 08:13:pm

lenape
Member
Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

sschkaak wrote:

I speak of a "name-giver" as an "office" or, better, a "position" in Lenape society, the holder of which was called Wehawihelas ("One-who-gives-names-over-and-over").  Such an one was Mrs. Dean. 

Of course, any visionary could bestow a name; and, any Lenape could bestow a nickname.

Me too.

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#21 Nov-04-2009 08:31:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4270
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Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

Folks interested in learning more on this subject would do well to consult Weslager, Clinton A., "Name-Giving Among the Delaware Indians," in Names, volume 19, no.4, pages 268-283; and, Weslager, Clinton A., Magic Medicines of the Indians, Somerset, NJ (1973), pages 51-59.

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#22 Nov-04-2009 08:42:pm

lenape
Member
Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

one quick example:

Delaware Indian Symposium, Delaware Indian Name Giving, C.A. Weslager, pg 144, notation 7
"I have found three earlier examples of Delaware Indian Names bestowed on white Americans. Col. George Morgan was named Taimenend, meaning unknown.  Col. Danial Broadhead was named Maghinugua Keeshoch meaning "the great moon".  Charles Thompson was given a name meaning "the one who always tells the truth"....  As I have pointed out, the bestowal of an Indian Name was not only to make the recipient acceptable as a member of the tribe, but to make him known to the Creator."

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#23 Nov-04-2009 09:03:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4270
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Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

"Several claiming Delaware status have mistakenly equated being granted a Lenape name by Mrs. Dean, the last of the traditional Lenape name-givers, with full-fledged adoption into her family and tribe.  In fact, Mrs. Dean did not regard the granting of a Lenape name as in any way the equivalent of adoption, which required an altogether different ceremony.  It must also be stated that Mrs. Dean generously granted names when requested to do so, in conformance with the Lenape view that name-givers would lose their powers should they refuse the request of a name.  Such powers, it was believed, were obtained only from growing up in a traditional Lenape lifestyle, speaking the native language, and having had visions."

-Oestreicher, David M., "Epilogue," in Kraft, Herbert C., The Lenape-Delaware Indian Heritage:  10,000 B.C. - A.D. 2000, pub. by Lenape Books (2001), page 547.

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#24 Nov-04-2009 09:11:pm

lenape
Member
Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

guess this shows there was 2 versions to the same story, traditional Lenape would not name someone because they asked, this comes from experience, no "written" source, I guess if one one wants to really know go out to community.

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#25 Nov-04-2009 09:28:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4270
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Re: "United Eastern Lenape Nation"

The difference may not be that great.  It could be as simple as a matter of personal interpretation.  Perhaps, some felt that the obligation to give names was limited to their own people (including adoptees), while others felt that that obligation was not limited to their own people.  Nicknames were given to non-Indians, fairly often.

I simply don't want to leave any doubt in anybody's mind, about what Mrs. Dean's position on this was.

Last edited by sschkaak (Nov-04-2009 09:30:pm)

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