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#1 May-13-2009 10:03:pm

bls926
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Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

By Steven Newcomb
Story Published: May 12, 2009
Story Updated: May 13, 2009

"Tecumseh's Vision" is the second chapter of a five-part documentary film series being aired on PBS every Monday from April 13 - May 11. The series is being shown on the program "The American Experience," and the series title, "We Shall Remain," is taken from a speech attributed to the great Shawnee leader Tecumseh who lived from 1768 - 1813. (My Shawnee grandmother pronounced his name Tecum-tha).

Directed by Ric Burns and Chris Eyre (Cheyenne/Arapaho), "Tecumseh's Vision" is an effort to give the audience a sense of the magnitude of what Tecumseh and his brother Tenskwatawa ("the Prophet") accomplished. It also provides an emotional portrayal of the devastation experienced by Indian nations and peoples in what is now called the Old Northwest (that became Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan and Wisconsin).

From 1805 - 1813 Tecumseh made a Herculean effort to build a multi-national American Indian confederacy and to create an internationally recognized Indian buffer state between Canada and the United States. Covering thousands of miles on foot, horseback and canoe, he overcame many hurdles, including cultural and linguistic diversity, tremendous physical hardships, as well as opposition to his efforts. Through it all, he maintained an extraordinary degree of optimism and self-confidence.

Tecumseh had a charismatic personality and great athletic prowess. He was also a deep thinker and brilliant orator. One non-Indian translator who grew up with the Shawnees, and was fluent in their language since childhood, said he had tremendous difficulty translating Tecumseh's speeches because many of the concepts Tecumseh used in the Shawnee language were so profound.

The history of Tecumseh's life has been dealt with extensively over the past 196 years since his death Oct. 5, 1813, but, in my view, the makers of "Tecumseh's Vision" missed an opportunity to provide a more accurate version of U.S. history by explaining the lives of Tecumseh and his brother in the context of the colonial system of the American empire.

A couple years ago, when a woman from the production staff at WGBH in Boston called me at an early point in the project, I told her, "If you really want to tell the story of Tecumseh and his brother, then you need to accurately explain what they were up against."

There is a fascinating back story leading up to Tecumseh's remarkable campaign to unify the Indian nations. It traces to the Freemason founding of the United States. Some sense of this story is revealed in the book "The Secret Founding of America: The Real Story of Freemasons, Puritans, & the Battle for the New World," by Nicholas Hagger (1998). This is not some crackpot "conspiracy theory," it is the lesser known history of Freemasonry which is at the heart of the founding of the United States. It involves a well-conceived, long-range plan to take over and profit from the sale of all Indian lands in the Northwest Territory. The efforts of Tecumseh and his brother, and their allies, represent a concerted effort to stop this from happening.

George Washington (a freemason) plays a prominent role in the history. He had his eye on the Ohio Valley lands from the time he was young. He was a surveyor and land speculator, and other members of his family were also land speculators (his brothers were members of the Ohio Company). He referred to the United States as "our infant empire."

Washington was the first to propose the colonization of the Ohio Valley, and he once said, "If the scheme of establishing a new government on the Ohio, in the manner talked of, should ever be effected, these must be the most valuable lands in it."

As historian Colin G. Calloway has explained, "The American revolutionaries who fought for freedom from the British Empire in the East also fought to create an empire of their own in the West."

John Marshall (a freemason) became chief justice of the United States. His father, Thomas, a friend of Washington's, was also a surveyor and land speculator who moved west into the region that became Kentucky. Marshall referred to the United States as "this, our wide-spreading empire."

Historian George Bancroft called the 1787 Northwest Ordinance "the colonial system of the United States," or, in other words, the colonial system of the American empire. According to its founding document, the Masonic Society of the Cincinnati was formed to promote "the future dignity of the AMERICAN EMPIRE." Tecumseh and Tenskwatawa were working to oppose what amounted to a massive juggernaut of well-planned imperialistic expansion.

Rufus Putnam (a freemason) was one of Washington's brigadier generals, and a chief engineer for the Continental Army. In a letter to the president of the Continental Congress dated June 1783, Putnam said of the Ohio Valley: "I am, sir, among those who consider the [British] cession of so great a tract of territory to the United States in the western world as a very happy circumstance and of great consequence to the American Empire."

Putnam had a plan to overcome Indian opposition: "let a chain of forts be established," he said. The forts "should be built on the bank of the river, if the ground will admit, and about twenty miles distant from each other." Once such a chain of forts was established, Putnam wrote, "who ever will inspect the maps must be convinced that all the Indians living on the waters of the Mohawk, Oswego, Susquehanna, and Alleghany Rivers, and all the country south of Lakes Ontario and Erie, will be encircled in such a manner as will effectually secure their allegiance and keep them quiet, or oblige them to quit their country." This is the first hint at what became the U.S. policy of Indian Removal.

Tecumseh's life can be understood as a major aspect of the Indian opposition to the imperial expansion of the United States. It can also be understood in the context of the most influential whites of that era using Indian lands for massive land speculation and profit making in the Ohio country, while using the sale of Indian lands to pay off the public debt incurred by the United States during the Revolutionary War. Unfortunately, the PBS production failed to tell this part of the story.

Steve Newcomb, Shawnee/Lenape, is indigenous law research coordinator in the education department of the Sycuan Band of the Kumeyaay Nation, co-founder and co-director of the Indigenous Law Institute, and author of "Pagans in the Promised Land: Decoding the Doctrine of Christian Discovery" (Fulcrum, 2008).

http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/opinion/44818297.html

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#2 Apr-26-2010 10:31:am

Newallike
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

There is a fascinating back story leading up to Tecumseh's remarkable campaign to unify the Indian nations. It traces to the Freemason founding of the United States. Some sense of this story is revealed in the book "The Secret Founding of America: The Real Story of Freemasons, Puritans, & the Battle for the New World," by Nicholas Hagger (1998). This is not some crackpot "conspiracy theory," it is the lesser known history of Freemasonry which is at the heart of the founding of the United States. It involves a well-conceived, long-range plan to take over and profit from the sale of all Indian lands in the Northwest Territory. The efforts of Tecumseh and his brother, and their allies, represent a concerted effort to stop this from happening.

I am new to this site and have been reading through some of the older posts and was surprised to find this one.  My surprises is mostly from the fact that there were no responses in almost a year.  I wonder why?  Is it because as Newcomb points out, because Freemasons and everything related is considered some 'crackpot theory', or is it because the issue of Freemasonry is not well known by readers on this site?

It is easy to push all things Freemasonic aside as conspiracy theory bs but that may be throwing away the 'baby with the bathwater', imo.  I have been studying Freemasonry for over 30 years, I am not a Mason, and know way too much to dismiss these criticisms out of hand.  I know the 'lesser known history' to which Newcomb refers.

I also have a 'dog in this fight', and that is where my interest lies.

I don't know how much interest there is at this group on this subject so I won't go into too much detail unless it is
warranted, but I would like to ask a question and make a few statements about who I am and why I am asking these questions.

My question is regarding the Gnadenhutten Massacre of 1782.  Can anyone tell me why there is a Masonic Obelisk standing at this site to commemorate the event?

My statements are; that I am descended from what was once called the Moravian Band of the Delaware Indians and my ancestor was one of four Delaware Indians that dedicated that obelisk, and that there was far more to the Moravians than meets the eye, or that is generally known.

Should anyone have an answer to my question, I would greatly appreciate it, and should anyone want to discuss more about the Moravians and what they had to do with Freemasonry and the Lost Symbol written recently by Dan Brown, I would be happy to oblige.

Thanks!


In essentials, unity
In non-essentials, liberty
In all things, charity

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#3 Apr-26-2010 10:58:am

sschkaak
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

"Takes-four-steps" writes:

I am new to this site and have been reading through some of the older posts and was surprised to find this one.  My surprises is mostly from the fact that there were no responses in almost a year.  I wonder why?

Probably, because to any student of U.S. history there's nothing new in it. 

...should anyone want to discuss more about the Moravians and what they had to do with Freemasonry and the Lost Symbol written recently by Dan Brown, I would be happy to oblige.

I'd love to learn anything you can tell us regarding freemasonry and the Moravians.

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#4 Apr-26-2010 12:26:pm

tree hugger
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

I would also be interested in this discussion.

I've been asked to move this thread to Lenape, I see no reason not to.

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#5 Apr-26-2010 12:44:pm

Newallike
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

sschkaak wrote:

"Takes-four-steps" writes:

I am new to this site and have been reading through some of the older posts and was surprised to find this one.  My surprises is mostly from the fact that there were no responses in almost a year.  I wonder why?

Probably, because to any student of U.S. history there's nothing new in it. 

...should anyone want to discuss more about the Moravians and what they had to do with Freemasonry and the Lost Symbol written recently by Dan Brown, I would be happy to oblige.

I'd love to learn anything you can tell us regarding freemasonry and the Moravians.

For the most part, I would agree, but it is amazing how much students of history do not know about the Freemasons, particularly their esoteric side.  I don't doubt that most here know the story of Tecumseh, but the intent of the Freemasons is where the question lies.

Does your answer imply that you do not know why there is an obelisk marking this gravesite?

Should the Moravian/Freemason issue be in a separate thread?

Thanks for answering, and from reading your posts and replies throughout this site I am not sure what I can tell you that you do not already know.  That is a high compliment meant with all respect.  smile


In essentials, unity
In non-essentials, liberty
In all things, charity

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#6 Apr-26-2010 02:00:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

Thanks for the compliment, Newallike.  I, myself, am not a Moravian, yet cannot have helped but to study much about the Moravian interaction with the Delaware Indians, as a conjunct to my study of Delaware culture, history and language.  But, the missionaries I deal with came after that period (Is it the "sifting" period"?) when the cult of the side-hole of Jesus, and all that stuff had passed.  (Some of the earliest hymns, in Delaware, do allude to these things, but that didn't last very long.)  So, I really have no knowledge of the connection of freemasonry with the Moravians.  I have books on freemasonry and Rosicrucianism, etc., but don't recall any of them mentioning the United Brethren.  Therefore, what you have to say on this should be totally new information for me, at least.

P.S. - Does any of this tie-in with the Delaware Indians?  If so, then I guess this is as good a place as any to keep the thread.

Last edited by sschkaak (Apr-26-2010 02:02:pm)

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#7 Apr-26-2010 03:20:pm

Newallike
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

sschkaak wrote:

Thanks for the compliment, Newallike.  I, myself, am not a Moravian, yet cannot have helped but to study much about the Moravian interaction with the Delaware Indians, as a conjunct to my study of Delaware culture, history and language.  But, the missionaries I deal with came after that period (Is it the "sifting" period"?) when the cult of the side-hole of Jesus, and all that stuff had passed.  (Some of the earliest hymns, in Delaware, do allude to these things, but that didn't last very long.)

As with the Freemasons, there is always a 'group within a group', where the initiated are told things that the 'unwashed' are not told, so it was with the Moravians.

Much of the esoteric history of the Moravians does go back to the 'sifting period' of Count Zinzendor and his son Christian Renatus.  It was the Zinzendorfs that linked the Moravians Church back to the Unitas Fratrum of Jan Hus back to none other than the Knights Templar and their 'Plan' for a utopian society that they brought to their New Jerusalem (North America) and it's corresponding cities of Bethlehem and Nazareth.  Those cities were named as such with intent.

So, I really have no knowledge of the connection of freemasonry with the Moravians.  I have books on freemasonry and Rosicrucianism, etc., but don't recall any of them mentioning the United Brethren.  Therefore, what you have to say on this should be totally new information for me, at least.

Count Zinzendorf was the leader of the Rosicrucians from 1744-1749, important dates in the relationship between the Moravians and the Delaware Indians.  He founded the Order of the Mustard Seed and Masonic dictionaries list a category called Moravian Masonry called the Confraternity of Moravian Brothers of the Order of the Religious Freemasons.

more: In the multi-layered symbolism of his [Swedenborg's] dream language, he seemed to refer to his desire to join Zinzendorf's Order of the Mustard Seed, which included members important to the Hat-Jacobite political agenda. Influenced by his initiatory experiences at Ephrata, the count had recently transformed the Order into an international, hierarchical secret society, in which "members were often kept unknown to each other, and their connection with the Order carefully concealed from all." To ensure secrecy, the "candidate never knew the frater who received him." According to C. G. von Murr, the new Order of the Mustard Seed was a "pale imitation of the Society of the Rosicrucians" and a form of "spiritual Freemasonry". While critics charged that Zinzendorf "bestows orders of knighthood," his initiates wore a "Templar style cross." Thus Swedenborg's reference to the oil and mustard suggests his desire to join the intensely secretive Order of the Mustard Seed, whose Rosicrucian rituals would give him new life.

P.S. - Does any of this tie-in with the Delaware Indians?  If so, then I guess this is as good a place as any to keep the thread.

Count Zinzendorf thought that the Lenape were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel, and sought to intermarry with them in this New Jerusalem to produce 'uniquely spiritual offspring'. 

If this was true, how much more would he consider the Moravian Band of the Delaware uniquely spiritual, so much so that he purposefully set them aside for a holy purpose?

More tomorrow!


In essentials, unity
In non-essentials, liberty
In all things, charity

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#8 Apr-26-2010 03:27:pm

Chevy
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

I didn't respond to this post, because I didn't see it.


Newallike wrote:

Can anyone tell me why there is a Masonic Obelisk standing at this site to commemorate the event?

It seems like I remember you bringing this up on fait forum, but under what "name", I don't remember today.


Count Zinzendorf was the leader of the Rosicrucians from 1744-1749,

That's interesting.

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#9 Apr-26-2010 03:29:pm

Chevy
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

Steven's post is a good one. Thanks bls.

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#10 Apr-26-2010 06:31:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

Newallike wrote:

"Count Zinzendorf thought that the Lenape were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel, and sought to intermarry with them in this New Jerusalem to produce 'uniquely spiritual offspring'."

I may be jumping the gun, here, but if this was Zinzendorf's plan, it was certainly never implemented.  Only two of the prominent Pennsylvania Moravians (Christian Frederick Post and John Bull) married Lenape Indians; and, some historians have suggested these two were never ordained due to organizational prejudices against these inter-racial marriages.  Whether or not this was the case, it seems evident that Zinzendorf's plan never materialized.

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#11 Apr-27-2010 07:49:am

Newallike
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

Chevy wrote:

I didn't respond to this post, because I didn't see it.


Newallike wrote:

Can anyone tell me why there is a Masonic Obelisk standing at this site to commemorate the event?

It seems like I remember you bringing this up on fait forum, but under what "name", I don't remember today.

I did bring it up on another forum, not sure what you mean by the fait forum but I posted under the same name of Newallike.  It seemed to me that one day I went back to the previous forum and it was gone. Is this the resurrection of that same site?


Count Zinzendorf was the leader of the Rosicrucians from 1744-1749,

That's interesting.

I agree, and it is why I am curious as to why there is an Masonic Obelisk at the gravesite.  I know it to be a Masonic obelisk becuase many years ago when I visited the site I was approached by a local Mason who told me they were the caretakers of the site.  When I explained that Christian Moses Stonefish, my ancestor, was one of four Delaware Indians that dedicated the obelisk he invited me to the Lodge for dinner but I had to refuse as I was on my way to Washington DC to meet with Oren Lyons, John Mohawk and author Donald Grinde and was behind schedule due to my side trip to Gnadenhutten.

On the one hand the Moravians appeared to be pious Christians, and many were just that, but on the other hand, the religion of Count Zinzendorf was a strange mixture of a Druidic/Templar/Rosicrucian Protestant Christianity and the obelisk is clearly an Egyptian symbol with an occult meaning and purpose, ergo, my question.

I didn't get an answer last time and it appears I will not get my answer this time.  If anyone can contribute anything to this discussion, please do.


In essentials, unity
In non-essentials, liberty
In all things, charity

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#12 Apr-27-2010 09:13:am

Newallike
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

sschkaak wrote:

Newallike wrote:

"Count Zinzendorf thought that the Lenape were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel, and sought to intermarry with them in this New Jerusalem to produce 'uniquely spiritual offspring'."

I may be jumping the gun, here, but if this was Zinzendorf's plan, it was certainly never implemented.  Only two of the prominent Pennsylvania Moravians (Christian Frederick Post and John Bull) married Lenape Indians; and, some historians have suggested these two were never ordained due to organizational prejudices against these inter-racial marriages.

I don't disagree about the pious Moravians having some racial prejudices but there were other Moravians who did not, as you point out.  There may have been more than Post and Bull as well.

This from the Pennsylvania Historical Historical Marker Site;

The other religious group committed to seeking peace was the Moravians, a German pietist sect that made Bethlehem, Pennsylvania its headquarters for missionary work among Native Americans. The Moravians came to Pennsylvania in the 1740s and quickly established missions in the Hudson, Delaware, and Susquehanna Valleys. By learning Indian languages and customs and marrying into native families, the Moravians formed personal alliances with the Iroquois, Delaware, Mahican, and other tribes.

Whether or not this was the case, it seems evident that Zinzendorf's plan never materialized.

On the exoteric level, perhaps, but on an esoteric level, I'm not so sure.  Esoteric, in this instance, just meaning 'hidden'.

In 1741 the Moravians held a historic meeting with a group of Indians made up of members of the Delaware tribe and members of the Six Nations on an island in the Monocacy River near Bethlehem, Pennsylvania to perform a ritual that would unite the God of the Christians with the God of the Indians. This island was called by the German Moravians, Wunden Eiland, or The Island of the Wounds. The basic premise of this ritual would be an attempt to unify the two groups that, if successful, would lead to a harmonious and united relationship between the natives and the colonists and would be the determining factor about how the two groups would/could co-exist in North America. The ritual was to be based upon and sealed by an 'exchange of women' between the two groups.

This is based on a book called The Gift by HD (Hilda Doolittle), a Moravian who lived in Bethlehem at the turn of the century.  Here are a few quotes from other sources about HD's narrative;

"The pact was a plan to have a meeting at which they would enact one of the most ancient rituals of connection; the exchange of women."

"When the Moravian Anna von Pahlen is initiated into the Indian mysteries and the Indian, Morning Star, is baptized a Moravian, they exchange inner names and the pact between the two tribes is sealed."

"What was the importance of the ceremony at Wunden Eiland? For HD, the meeting marks the confluence of two great streams carrying the ancient secret of the gift, one flowing eastward from Asia, China, and Tibet, to the Indians, the other flowing westward from the Knights Templar and the Cathars to the Moravians."
(and then to the Indians from the Moravians)

If you or anyone here finds this interesting, I will continue as there is much more particularly regarding what is happening today in Moravian Falls, NC and a particular religious sect based on Zinzendorf's religious agenda.


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In non-essentials, liberty
In all things, charity

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#13 Apr-27-2010 09:48:am

sschkaak
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

Newallike writes:

"In 1741 the Moravians held a historic meeting with a group of Indians made up of members of the Delaware tribe and members of the Six Nations on an island in the Monocacy River near Bethlehem, Pennsylvania to perform a ritual that would unite the God of the Christians with the God of the Indians. This island was called by the German Moravians, Wunden Eiland, or The Island of the Wounds. The basic premise of this ritual would be an attempt to unify the two groups that, if successful, would lead to a harmonious and united relationship between the natives and the colonists and would be the determining factor about how the two groups would/could co-exist in North America. The ritual was to be based upon and sealed by an 'exchange of women' between the two groups."

"This is based on a book called The Gift by HD (Hilda Doolittle), a Moravian who lived in Bethlehem at the turn of the century."



This is from a NOVEL (i.e, a work of fiction).  The author struggled with her own bisexuality her entire life, and it's pretty clear to me that this passage is completely unhistorical.  Her works are replete with sexual themes, of which this is just one more.  It's all the product of her libidinous imagination.  (Just my personal opinion, of course.)

Last edited by sschkaak (Apr-27-2010 10:00:am)

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#14 Apr-27-2010 11:15:am

Newallike
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

sschkaak wrote:

Newallike writes:

"In 1741 the Moravians held a historic meeting with a group of Indians made up of members of the Delaware tribe and members of the Six Nations on an island in the Monocacy River near Bethlehem, Pennsylvania to perform a ritual that would unite the God of the Christians with the God of the Indians. This island was called by the German Moravians, Wunden Eiland, or The Island of the Wounds. The basic premise of this ritual would be an attempt to unify the two groups that, if successful, would lead to a harmonious and united relationship between the natives and the colonists and would be the determining factor about how the two groups would/could co-exist in North America. The ritual was to be based upon and sealed by an 'exchange of women' between the two groups."

"This is based on a book called The Gift by HD (Hilda Doolittle), a Moravian who lived in Bethlehem at the turn of the century."


This is from a NOVEL (i.e, a work of fiction).  The author struggled with her own bisexuality her entire life, and it's pretty clear to me that this passage is completely unhistorical.  Her works are replete with sexual themes, of which this is just one more.  It's all the product of her imagination.  (Just my personal opinion, of course.)

Again, I do not disagree with what you say, but what she says about Zinzendorf is not fictional, and that is where my interest lies.  Though I would not necessarily throw out 'all' she says because her book is a fictional account, much of what she says may be based on truths, not unlike the fiction/faction accounts put forth by Dan Brown in his novels.  Studying Freemasonry for as long as I have, I am intrigued by Brown's latest novel, The Lost Symbol becuase of the way he tells a very imaginative fictional tale based on many truths, not unlike he did in The Da Vince Code and Angels and Demons

So, let's put HD aside and talk about Zinzendorf who greatly affected the Delaware Indians personally, and through his Moravian missionaries.  Count Z's esoteric history, regarding Rosicrucianism which is based on Druidism, is not fictional and is heavily laced with sexuality as well, as in the practice of sexual magic and this is what got him into such trouble with the pious Moravians. 

Following the sexual magic thread leads one back to the obelisk at Gnadenhutten.  The obelisk is pre-Egyptian, and is revered by Masons everywhere with highly occult and sexual meaning as in their forever dying and resurrecting gods.

It is easy to dismiss this as just an ornamental grave marker, but consider that the obelisk at Gnadenhutten was erected in 1872, 5 years prior to the American Masons moving Cleopatras Needle to Central Park in NY from what was originally in Helioplis, Egypt before being moved in 22BC to Alexandria, and it becomes more significant. 

It becomes highly significant, and the question is why?


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In non-essentials, liberty
In all things, charity

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#15 Apr-27-2010 03:08:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

Newallike:

Would it be possible for you to clearly state what it is you want to convey to us on this subject?  As it is, it is virtually impossible for the rest of us to comprehend what that might be.  We can guess--but, personally, I'm not into that.  If you give us your "bottom line" understanding of this, maybe we could discuss this whole matter, intelligently.  Till then, there really isn't much we can say.  We really don't even know what to ask.

I guess what I'm asking is that you give us an abstract of your argument before presenting the evidence which leads you to your conclusions.

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#16 Apr-27-2010 03:41:pm

Newallike
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

sschkaak wrote:

Newallike:

Would it be possible for you to clearly state what it is you want to convey to us on this subject?

sschkaak:

It was not really an attempt to 'convey' anything, it was an attempt to have a discussion on a forum where I thought there would be interest in the 'back story' that affected and may continue to affect the Lenape.  My discussion started out with this piece from Newcomb's article;

There is a fascinating back story leading up to Tecumseh's remarkable campaign to unify the Indian nations. It traces to the Freemason founding of the United States. Some sense of this story is revealed in the book "The Secret Founding of America: The Real Story of Freemasons, Puritans, & the Battle for the New World," by Nicholas Hagger (1998). This is not some crackpot "conspiracy theory," it is the lesser known history of Freemasonry which is at the heart of the founding of the United States. It involves a well-conceived, long-range plan to take over and profit from the sale of all Indian lands in the Northwest Territory.

As it is, it is virtually impossible for the rest of us to comprehend what that might be.  We can guess--but, personally, I'm not into that.

I thought it was clear that my question involved the obelisk at Gnadenhutten and the Masons that put it there and that tied back to the statement above. 

If you give us your "bottom line" understanding of this, maybe we could discuss this whole matter, intelligently.  Till then, there really isn't much we can say.  We really don't even know what to ask.

I guess I have my answer, which is that no one here knows the answer, and that's ok.

Thanks for your time! smile


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In non-essentials, liberty
In all things, charity

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#17 Apr-27-2010 04:30:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

Sorry.  I misunderstood.  Hope you find your answer.  Wawullamallessil!

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#18 Apr-27-2010 05:30:pm

littleoldman
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Registered: Jul-21-2007
Posts: 133

Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

I would be interested in knowing what is on this marker.  Any masonic signs or symbols like a square and compasses, all seeing eye, dedication, and reason that this is assumed to be masonic and not just an obelisk.  Oh yes if you know what Lodge and its number I just may be able to shed some light on the subject.  "LOM"

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#19 Apr-28-2010 04:23:am

Chevy
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Registered: Aug-01-2007
Posts: 1577

Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

I did bring it up on another forum, not sure what you mean by the fait forum but I posted under the same name of Newallike.  It seemed to me that one day I went back to the previous forum and it was gone. Is this the resurrection of that same site?

Thank you! I couldn't remember what name you posted there. fait = fourmamericanindiantribe, where you posted. There one day, and gone the next by the owner. This isn't a resurrection of that site. The Admin. there started another board. Owner and Admin. were 2 different ppl.

It'll take me a while to read what you've posted, and catch up.

It sounds like you've done your research.

There are no Masons in my family. Maternal and Paternal sides were too poor, and my Maternal side was adverse to Masons based on their Christian beliefs. In other words, the denomination my Mother belonged to.  But I grew up in a community where wealthy Masons ran everything in several Texas counties: bank, Judge, Sheriff, etc, from about 1850 onwards, and were allegedly members of a Vigilantee committee who killed/shot/hung/executed/murdered around 50 persons. They were never brought to justice, as they bucked the Texas Rangers, got two Texas Rangers fired, murdered a man in cold blood in their "jail", because he was going to name names to the Texas Rangers, and allegedly paid the Governor of Texas $50,000. around 1874- 1876 to not be charged.
I also once came across Albert Pikes' original book written in the 1800's? for 33'rd degree Masons, and it was a total occult book.

So, yes, there are persons who say they are Christians, Presbyterians specifically, where I grew up, and they were Masons. And then there were other Christians who were disapproved of Masons. My Mother in particular loathed them. She alleged that she knew  2 men who killed a hitch hiker for $16. and fellow Masons lied and got them off.

I do know the area where I grew up, in the 1850's to 1890's was White Anglo-
Saxon Presbyterians land-hungry, Indian-hating. Many wanted to, and did drive the Indians out for the land. There was the Comanche Reserve near where I grew up, and another Reservation in Young County where Delaware were.

I grew up in this area, and no one talks about any of it. I was grown, and only past 5 years or so, did I realize who some of the families were in the area who had owned slaves before the Civil War, and realized that these powerful families didn't come to the area poor. However they did become very wealthy during the Civil War. They were on the frontier and avoided conscription.

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#20 Apr-28-2010 08:35:am

Newallike
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Registered: Apr-23-2010
Posts: 60

Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

sschkaak wrote:

Sorry.  I misunderstood.  Hope you find your answer.  Wawullamallessil!

Thanks for the well wishes!


In essentials, unity
In non-essentials, liberty
In all things, charity

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#21 Apr-28-2010 09:33:am

Newallike
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Registered: Apr-23-2010
Posts: 60

Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

littleoldman wrote:

I would be interested in knowing what is on this marker.  Any masonic signs or symbols like a square and compasses, all seeing eye, dedication, and reason that this is assumed to be masonic and not just an obelisk.  Oh yes if you know what Lodge and its number I just may be able to shed some light on the subject.  "LOM"

I am going to attempt to attach pics here of the obelisk and a close up of the inscription for your clarification, but there are no 'Masonic' markings on the obelisk.  The only reason I think it is more than just an ornamental obelisk is that when I visited the site I was approached by a man who said he was a Mason and he told me that the local Masons were the ones who look after the site.  I go into more detail about that visit in a post above.  This was about 20 years ago and now the Gnadenhutten Historical Society is the caretaker of the site.  It is the Port Washington Lodge #202.

/pb.php?url=http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Newallike/gnadenhuttenobelisk.jpg

/pb.php?url=http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab18/Newallike/gnadenhuttenobelisk2.jpg


In essentials, unity
In non-essentials, liberty
In all things, charity

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#22 Apr-28-2010 09:53:am

Newallike
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Registered: Apr-23-2010
Posts: 60

Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

Chevy wrote:

I also once came across Albert Pikes' original book written in the 1800's? for 33'rd degree Masons, and it was a total occult book.

You are probably referring to Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike and yes, much of it is of an occult nature and therein lies my tale and my concern about the relationship between the Freemasons and the Moravians and then to the Moravian Band of the Delaware Indians.


So, yes, there are persons who say they are Christians, Presbyterians specifically, where I grew up, and they were Masons. And then there were other Christians who were disapproved of Masons. My Mother in particular loathed them. She alleged that she knew  2 men who killed a hitch hiker for $16. and fellow Masons lied and got them off.

There are many stories of this nature regarding their 'good old boy' network.  But, I hasten to add that not all Freemasons know of, or buy into, their occult side.  But I respectfully submit that they don't know what they don't know, because they don't know it! hmm

I do know the area where I grew up, in the 1850's to 1890's was White Anglo-
Saxon Presbyterians land-hungry, Indian-hating. Many wanted to, and did drive the Indians out for the land. There was the Comanche Reserve near where I grew up, and another Reservation in Young County where Delaware were.

This story of White Anglo Saxon Protestant (WASP) land grabbing and Indian hating goes all the way back to the beginning of pre-Columbian contact, and continues today, and you can almost always find a Masonic fingerprint when you look behind the scenes, or as Newcomb calls it, 'the back story'!


In essentials, unity
In non-essentials, liberty
In all things, charity

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#23 Apr-28-2010 09:00:pm

Chevy
Member
Registered: Aug-01-2007
Posts: 1577

Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

Yes, it was his original Morals and Dogma. I wish I'd kept it, but I didn't. I understand today, there's a copy that doesn't have all the original had in it. and the original, the last time I looked cost a lot.

There are many stories of this nature regarding their 'good old boy' network.  But, I hasten to add that not all Freemasons know of, or buy into, their occult side.  But I respectfully submit that they don't know what they don't know, because they don't know it! hmm

Yes, I believe this to be true.

My Dad was a cowboy for one of these families, as was my Grandfather, and my Great-Grandfather, and I have a book, that the family had printed, of which there are few and far inbetween, and they cost a lot, if you can find one, and it has photos of all of these inter-married families, Masons, in their Masonic regalia. One of the family members wrote a book about their family members, and then they had a pictorial supplement printed. They gave my Dad one. The book was published in 1936, and the pictorial supplement in 1953. We left there when I was 14. My Dad never cowboyed for any of them ever again.

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#24 Apr-28-2010 10:32:pm

littleoldman
Member
Registered: Jul-21-2007
Posts: 133

Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

Newalike: I have a list of lodges 1996.  I looked under Penn. There are two Washington lodges listed #623 and #164..  Have I got the correct state?  Nowadays most State Grand Lodges have a web site a polite letter of inquiry about the monument just might uncover some history.  I also have run into this occult stuff over the last thirty years or so.  It invariably comes from a non mason.  I can't speak to this stuff from the past.  It does seem strange though.  I can state under oath if necessary that I have never run into an occult bent in the thirty years that I have been a master mason.  I am willing to answer to the best of my knowledge and ability any questions that may arise.  Pike in some circles may or may not be agreed with.  Just like in any organization some members attempt to make more of it than it really is.  Kinda like "Instant Indians" just add water to become an active member in good standing in the Wannabe Tribe.  For those that do not know each State has a Grand Lodge and  each State is autonomous.   I am "LittleOldMan"

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#25 Apr-28-2010 11:34:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4342
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Re: Newcomb: Something missing from PBS's "Tecumseh's Vision"

Gnadenhuetten is in Ohio.

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