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#76 Sep-19-2008 08:51:pm

NanticokePiney
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From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

tree hugger wrote:

So, apparently, the University of Pennsylvania doesn't even know it's own history!

Or they're counting on no one else remembering. hmm

neutral  Your probably right..........


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#77 Sep-19-2008 11:00:pm

NanticokePiney
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Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

portion of a letter responding to Abby Seldin's request for Lenape to submit information for a supplement article in the Philadelphia Inquirer.

I can say that many of the tribal members here in Oklahoma are upset about the authenticity of the Lenape culture being presented in your exhibit. Their perception of the authenticity of the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania is full of skepticism and doubt. Their endorsement of the cultural history and authenticity of the contents of your exhibit is nearly non-existent

yikes "OOPS! I did it again......."


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#78 Sep-24-2008 10:33:am

lenape
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Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

for those following the circus here is the video link:

http://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/exhibit … ideo.shtml

  still don't who "concocted" the "4th crow", would assume Bill Thompson back in the 70'-80's when he re-created the story of the "rainbow crow" from one of the Cherokee stories, now among these folks around here it is an "traditional Lenape Legend...", there were a few grammatical errors in Shelly's recital of their "legend", but at this point who is counting the inaccuracies, it would be easier to point out what is accurate, hmmmm, uhhh, well..., never mind....., tongue

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#79 Sep-24-2008 11:39:am

tree hugger
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Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

Uh thanks, that was interesting. neutral

From the above link:

“The Prophecy” poetically recounts the “Prophecy of the Fourth Crow,” which is understood to parallel the history of Pennsylvania’s hidden Lenape people. The film opens with the bet of a drum, the heartbeat of a Nation, as the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania’s flag dances on the wind. As the Prophecy unfolds, spoken first in Lenape and then in English, impressionistic images of earth, water, fire and air suggest a dream-like state and recall the Lenape’s close connection to the land and all of its creatures. A male figure in a red ribbon shirt and a female spirit figure serve as guides through the emotional landscape that connects the Lenape people to their lost land and hidden heritage. A montage of faces provokes a series of questions: How can a people emerge from decades in hiding? How do we determine identity? What is heritage? Perhaps best compared to Latin American literary testimonios of the 1970s, the film exists in a liminal space between truth and fiction. Unlike many documentaries, it does not provide a litany of facts, but rather seeks to express the emotional presence of a community in the form of a prophetic poem. Tinged with both sorrow and the hope, “The Prophecy” pays tribute to the past and looks forward to a more hopeful future.

"the film exists in a liminal space between truth and fiction" that's a mighty big space IMO roll

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#80 Sep-24-2008 11:42:am

lenape
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Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

TH wrote:
""the film exists in a liminal space between truth and fiction" that's a mighty big space IMO roll"

  on a map that is located between NJ and Ohio roll

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#81 Sep-24-2008 12:30:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
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Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

"the film exists in a liminal space between truth and fiction"

Reminds me of Oscar Levant's famous saying:  "There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line."   smile

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#82 Sep-24-2008 02:06:pm

lenape
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Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

if you notice the "comments" section of this "youtube" video has been disabled and the comments from this morning have been deleted, wouldn't want the truth to come out....

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#83 Sep-24-2008 06:53:pm

NanticokePiney
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From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

Lets give the readers out there this food for thought....

  When Frank  G. Speck indentified the hidden isolate tribes In the East, he identified ones that had even forgotten they were Indians themselves ( i.e.The Crotoan).
  How could he have missed a group that ....ahem...retained major parts of their culture and language? I don't think Frank missed any tribes........
  Isolate tribal groups, even ones that are hidden from public view, are most often described as Indian by the local population. The local people surrounding the Nanticoke-Lenape have always described us as Indians. Many used the N word rather liberally and saw us as "colored people" and below them but they never denied our ethnicity.
  How many people in Bob Ruth's hometown said they have a "Indian tribe" that has always been there??
   Last... How did this group retain a clan system when no other Coastal Algonquian tribe from, or on the Eastern Seaboard did???


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#84 Sep-24-2008 09:17:pm

NanticokePiney
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From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
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Posts: 4214

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

mark wrote:

NanticokePiney wrote:

Lets give the readers out there this food for thought....

  When Frank  G. Speck indentified the hidden isolate tribes In the East, he identified ones that had even forgotten they were Indians themselves ( i.e.The Crotoan).
  How could he have missed a group that ....ahem...retained major parts of their culture and language? I don't think Frank missed any tribes........
  Isolate tribal groups, even ones that are hidden from public view, are most often described as Indian by the local population. The local people surrounding the Nanticoke-Lenape have always described us as Indians. Many used the N word rather liberally and saw us as "colored people" and below them but they never denied our ethnicity.
  How many people in Bob Ruth's hometown said they have a "Indian tribe" that has always been there??
   Last... How did this group retain a clan system when no other Coastal Algonquian tribe from, or on the Eastern Seaboard did???

Always got a kick out of that myself, I recognized some of the faces in the video, and could never figure out how people from matriarcial societies could have so many clanmembers with white mothers.  In the Seneca language, there are specific
terms that one uses to identify themselves if they have no clan membership. Thus, you carry the blood and may participate in social events to an extent, but you are not one of them without that clan membership.  Oh, by the way, there aren't any hidden Seneca tribes coming out of the woodwork, just a lot of mixed bloods who know our place tongue

That's cause you Mengwe have large enough mengwe to kick their butts if they did.


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#85 Sep-26-2008 12:14:pm

lenape
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Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

hmmmmm.......
  I am at a loss for words, guess these folks are being "backed" by "legit." folks, makes my head spin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/natio … 65174.html

hmm

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#86 Sep-26-2008 12:41:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

Doesn't surprise me.  Evan Pritchard has his American Indian backers, too.  Folly does not observe racial or cultural boundaries.

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#87 Sep-26-2008 12:42:pm

Tokipahkinao
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Registered: Jul-22-2008
Posts: 212

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

He! Folks,

                If you live in an area serviced by the Phila. Inquirer, including the south jersey edition, check out the 1/2 page ad in today's  Weekend Mag. section on p. w17.

                 From the U. of Penn Museum "display": (a summary):  They've been hiding in LENAPEHOKING  for hundreds of years.
                 They've emerged from hiding .... and invite the public to sign the "TREATY of RENEWED BROTHERHOOD" , which they first concocted in 2002.
Remember the first signing at Pennsbury Manor??? when  wannabees stopped on their canoe trip down the Delaware R.?

                                        Anybody need to borrow a pen???

                                             Tokipahkinao

PS: I called John Kraft this AM. Unfortunately, the word "Lenapehoking" was not copyrighted. Let's see what  they have to say about this "ancient word" for their "ancient times" of 200 years of hiding!

                                                 MEF

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#88 Sep-26-2008 01:06:pm

lenape
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Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

sschkaak wrote:

Doesn't surprise me.  Evan Pritchard has his American Indian backers, too.  Folly does not observe racial or cultural boundaries.

Good point!  We have been at powwows in NY as a drum where Evan is "guest of Honor", many of these Powwows are pretty good ones, none the less...

  I just don't understand how this group has convinced so many people who they are, I have spoken to a half dozen folks who knew Bob when he was white, some even contacted Penn, yet they are ignored, I hope to post some of the articles of when this all started in the PA area, maybe this weekend, in short: The Brotherhood of North American Indians began in 1911, this lasted about 2 years, from this came the League of North American Indians, which had "chapters" throughout north America and Canada, this later became League of Nations, Pan-American Indians, which after 35+/- years dwindled to mostly "communities", one of which was United Lenape Band and Adopted Tribal Peoples, which had 3 main branches, one in the South, one in the West(later moved to Ohio), and from these 2 came the one in the East, now enter into the picture Bill Thompson, from this came many of the "splinter groups" today, mostly because one didn't like the rules of the other, sometime in the mid to late 90's Bob decided that he was going to claim that his group was the continuation of this group, at least the Lenape chapter as there are other tribal groups that came from this, even claimed so when they "registered" their name as a 501c3, reason for doing this I would guess is that he/they assumed that those who were around for this were now all dead of disapated and no one whould know any better, so since then they have created their own history around this existing history.  Little did they know that the 2 small groups of Lenape from United Lenape Band were still functional, just not out in the "lime light" or looking for any handouts...
hmm

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#89 Sep-26-2008 03:08:pm

NanticokePiney
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From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

lenape wrote:

hmmmmm.......
  I am at a loss for words, guess these folks are being "backed" by "legit." folks, makes my head spin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.indiancountrytoday.com/natio … 65174.html

hmm

The renowned Red Blanket Singers... SWWEEEET! I think I'll throw some emails around.


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#90 Sep-26-2008 07:53:pm

NanticokePiney
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From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

*BUMP*


  yikes gotta keep this up top...........


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#91 Sep-28-2008 11:57:am

Tokipahkinao
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Registered: Jul-22-2008
Posts: 212

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

HE! Folks,

                       Anyone on this forum had a chance to make a "pilgimage" to the U of Penn Museum yet?

                       Any one heard any "unofficial comments" from others about the "display".???

                       Even at church today, I heard from some folks who appear to be interested since they read the article  in the papers- They asked me  because they know of my background. It's difficult ( especially at church), to be charitable in my comments.


                              BUT TRUTH WILL WIN OUT!

                                             Tokipahkinao

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#92 Sep-28-2008 12:48:pm

lenape
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Posts: 1779

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

Tokipahkinao wrote:

HE! Folks,

                       Anyone on this forum had a chance to make a "pilgimage" to the U of Penn Museum yet?

                       Any one heard any "unofficial comments" from others about the "display".???

                       Even at church today, I heard from some folks who appear to be interested since they read the article  in the papers- They asked me  because they know of my background. It's difficult ( especially at church), to be charitable in my comments.


                              BUT TRUTH WILL WIN OUT!

                                             Tokipahkinao

Yes, I had the pleasure of meeting some of the folks who attended this "circus" at a presentation we did yesturday.  At the the end of our presentation many had questions why what we did was "so different" in comparison to what went on at Penn, which opened a whole discussion on their display and what was wrong with this.  It actually went very well, many of the folks at our demonstration that were also at Penn "thought there was a lot wrong" with the "customs" of LNP, so I talked a little about that and "cleared up" some of the misconceptions, however like you this was at a church sponcered event so I was "restricted" on what I thought was "appropriate" to say, but I think it gave a REAL perspective as many of the folks there were educators and these are the folks that need to know the fact more than anyone as they are the ones who teach our children.  For a 3 hour program, minus 45 min. of social songs and some Powwow songs that we did the discussion ended up being a "crituque" of U of Penn/ LNP's display!!

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#93 Sep-28-2008 07:49:pm

Tokipahkinao
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Registered: Jul-22-2008
Posts: 212

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

HE! Lenape,

                                     Right on !!!!!

                                                Love,
                                          MaryEllen

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#94 Sep-28-2008 09:08:pm

NanticokePiney
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From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

Tokipahkinao wrote:

HE! Lenape,

                                     Right on !!!!!

                                                Love,
                                          MaryEllen

big_smile   What MEBF said!!!!!


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#95 Sep-28-2008 09:11:pm

lenape
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Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

NanticokePiney wrote:

Tokipahkinao wrote:

HE! Lenape,

                                     Right on !!!!!

                                                Love,
                                          MaryEllen

big_smile   What MEBF said!!!!!

Thanks!!  Sadly it is going to take quite some time to undo what they did!!roll

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#96 Sep-28-2008 10:32:pm

NanticokePiney
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From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

lenape wrote:

NanticokePiney wrote:

Tokipahkinao wrote:

HE! Lenape,

                                     Right on !!!!!

                                                Love,
                                          MaryEllen

big_smile   What MEBF said!!!!!

Thanks!!  Sadly it is going to take quite some time to undo what they did!!roll

neutral


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#97 Sep-30-2008 04:04:pm

lenape
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Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

*BUMP*  big_smile

  also wanted to point out another lie in print, for those of you with score cards follow along:

  on the mis-information site: http://www.panativeamericans.org/gallery.html note the caption under the picture: "Chiefs Bill Thomson, Sam Hannah Gray Wolf, Shaman Bill Bock, and FUTURE Lenape Chief Bob Red Hawk in 1993"

  Now folks let us move over to the next page of mis-information: http://www.museum.upenn.edu/new/exhibit … ions.shtml
  "The sitting chief of the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania is Chief Robert Red Hawk Ruth (1990 to 2004; 2007 to present)."

  Let us note that the dates do not match up, there was no "Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania" in 1993, I do not know what Bill Thompson was calling his community at that time, but it was not "LNP", and after talking to some of the legitimate people that were at this event, Bill was asked "what is your position?" and his response was "I'm just a story teller, I don't know anything.", Bob brought his POWWOW drum as entertainment, there was nothing about him being anyone, certainly not a "Chief", I don't know that Sauts claimed to be a "Shaman", but he is another issue all together!!

  You would think that the lies would at least match up????mad

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#98 Sep-30-2008 04:45:pm

NanticokePiney
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From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

lenape wrote:

*BUMP*  big_smile

Let us note that the dates do not match up, there was no "Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania" in 1993, I do not know what Bill Thompson was calling his community at that time, but it was not "LNP"

Eastern Lenape Nation along with Wayne Posten.


I don't know that Sauts claimed to be a "Shaman", but he is another issue all together!!

Who did he learn from Evan Pritchard? yikes Sauts is just mentally unstable. C'mon you saw his house.


   Nice job kid! I gotta give you five stars for that one. You must also point out that Bill Thompson was from Burlington County New Jersey and could no way be a part of a "continuous community" ( see-"tribe") residing in P.A.


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#99 Sep-30-2008 04:51:pm

lenape
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Registered: Feb-11-2008
Posts: 1779

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

NP wrote:
  "Nice job kid! I gotta give you five stars for that one."

  Thank you:D, did i win the prize?  Please, please oh, ah, um... I want the sacred ceremonial traditional Mesing'w embroidered oven mitts, please, please....

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#100 Sep-30-2008 05:12:pm

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Fulfilling a Prophecy: The Past and Present of the Lenape in "PA"

lenape wrote:

NP wrote:
  "Nice job kid! I gotta give you five stars for that one."

  Thank you:D, did i win the prize?  Please, please oh, ah, um... I want the sacred ceremonial traditional Mesing'w embroidered oven mitts, please, please....

Howabout I stick a buck scalp on your head with a pair underwear and declare you "war chief" like me and Tree hugger did to her poor kid. Then  give you some Misingk Underoos.


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
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