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#1 Nov-13-2007 06:41:am

vanillaindian
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Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

From Tamra:

Press Release

November 12, 2007

Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles

Miracles are occurrences many find difficult to accept.

Anomalies in the natural world always strike our attention.

At the Woodland Zoo http://www.woodlandzoo.net a small private zoo in Farmington, Pennsylvania owned by Jill and Sonny Herring, anomalies, or miracles, continue to occur.

A known, yet uncommon anomaly is parthenogenesis. In layman's terms, parthenogenesis would commonly be called a virgin birth, and is usually associated with invertebrates, plants, fish, frogs, insects, and lizards. It is not normally thought to be associated with mammals. However, there are some farmers who would tell you it's not uncommon for turkeys and rabbits to give birth without fertilization as well. In most cases, the offspring are said to be identical to the mother (with a few exceptions like the Komodo Dragon Lizard and the Honey Bee).

Yet another anomaly is albino animals. Considered a distinct category of anomaly, this is more commonly known to the mainstream mind. Albinos not only have white coloration to their fur or feathers but also normally have the trademark red eyes, pink nose, pink feet, and pink skin. Further, they also are often sterile. Prone to disease and especially susceptible to the affects of sunlight, albinos often have a very short lifespan.

But a different class of anomaly, a true white creature which is not an albino, would certainly catch anyone's eye. These white creatures maintain the normal characteristics of their species but do not exhibit the pink eyes, etc., of the albino. Born white, they may or may not stay white throughout their lifetime. Additionally, they often live a normal life and reproduce offspring which most commonly are not white.

The odds are exceptionally high for the birth of a true white buffalo calf. It has been said to be 1 in 10 million. For many of the Native American Nations, a white buffalo calf is considered highly sacred within their traditional culture and beliefs.

In 1994, the white buffalo, Miracle, was born in Janesville, Wisconsin. According to reports, she was the first known white buffalo to be born since 1933. Yet, in the years since her birth, there have been at least 15 to 20 other white buffalo born. Some may be albino; some may have cow or yak genes which created the white. Nonetheless, it is clear that an unusual number of them are true white buffalo calves.

In the normal fashion, in May 2006, one of their two female buffalo gave birth to a normal calf. However, six months later (without being fertilized by any male buffalo or other bovine), the same female gave birth to a fully-developed white buffalo calf on November 12, 2006.

Since the gestation period for buffalo is 9 months, the birth alone was startling. That the calf was white was enough to draw the attention of American Indians around the country. That the female had not been impregnated is enough to draw the attention of indigenous spiritual leaders from around the world. The white calf, a male, was named Kenahkihinén, which means "Watch Over Us" in the Lenape language by local Natives descended of the Lenape Nation.

The primary prophecies of the Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota [Sioux] Nations revolve around the appearance of a white buffalo calf and their traditional spiritual stories of a sacred white buffalo calf woman. In April of 2007, Oglala Lakota Spiritual Leader and Head Man, David Swallow, visited the zoo, blessing the calf and grounds. Local Native groups and other Native American spiritual leaders have visited and conducted ceremony as well. These calves are not worshipped but rather viewed as sacred messengers and fulfillment of prophecy.

In June of 2007, Lakota spiritual leaders endorsed two people who live nearby to spiritually watch over the lives of the white buffalo calf: Hawk Michael Spisak, mixed blood Holikachuk and Shawnee, and his partner, Tamra Brennan, who is mixed blood Eastern Cherokee. They were sent to the Eastern Door, the Eastern part of the continent, with a ceremonial drum, a traditional staff, and a sacred c'anunpa (a sacred Lakota prayer pipe) to aid them in their commission. Both these people have been visiting the calf regularly to pray. With this endorsement comes the responsibility of hosting the many Indigenous spiritual leaders from around the world which are expected to visit, which many have already agreed to do so.

However, on July 28, 2007, yet another remarkable event occurred. In the same pen as the white calf and his mother, resides a second, separate female buffalo. The Herrings have documented proof through USDA records there was no male buffalo or bovine present. Yet on that date, she gave birth to a black with four white legs female calf. Again, it is another instance of, for lack of better words, virgin birth.

The zoo owners assure everyone that there was no male buffalo or any kind of creature on the premises that could have possibly impregnated these two buffalo. They further relate that no instance of artificial insemination was practiced. They are as shocked as everyone else. The Herrings are very open about what has happened and, although they currently lack the funds to do this, have stated that they are willing to allow anyone else to assume the financial responsibility for any genetic testing done on these buffalo calves. The Herrings stipulate that whomever does this testing will agree to be responsible for the health and welfare of either of these two calves, and if anything detrimental were to occur, that party would be held financially liable. The Herrings also ask that this testing be conducted through a reputable and well known laboratory.

In the meantime, Spisak and Brennan realize the impact these events will have and the relevance they hold to all cultures. Many recognized spiritual leaders throughout the Americas have been contacted with regards to this event. Ceremony has been conducted and these two calves have been recognized as, again, for lack of better words, virgin births. These spiritual leaders agree this is an important event for all of mankind, and will issue statements with regards to this event in their time. All recognized spiritual leaders and elders from around the world are invited to come and hold ceremony in their own traditional ways with the calves, along with issuing a statement with regards to these two calves and this event, if they so desire . Anyone and everyone will be welcomed as visitors, by Jill and Sonny Herring of the Woodland Zoo as well as Hawk and Tamra.

Several spiritual leaders have already issued statements regarding these buffalo, you can view their statements at www.BuffaloMessengers.com. Additional statements from other spiritual leaders, are on there way and will be added as they arrive.

For More Information, Contact Hawk Spisak and Tamra Brennan at 304-789-5123

 

#2 Nov-13-2007 09:56:pm

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 975

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

So what does everyone think about this? I have been filing this whole thing under Who Are These People because of the ones who named the buffalo. But it seems that some legitimate people are lending credibility to the matter. Does anyone know the people who are supposed to be the spiritual guardians of these buffalo?


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#3 Nov-14-2007 12:16:am

bls926
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From: Texas
Registered: Oct-21-2006
Posts: 12082

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

Mixed feelings here. Don't know what to think. I remember when this white calf was born and named. Sure there were many others with the same thoughts I had back then, with the people who were involved. Funny thing, there was NO mention then of a virgin birth or the six-month gestation. A year later, we learn that there was not one, but two virgin births. That seems suspicious to me. But with Tamra Brennan and Arvol Looking Horse supporting this . . . Like I said, I'm not sure what to think now.

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#4 Nov-14-2007 07:04:am

vanillaindian
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Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

Suckachsinheet wrote:

So what does everyone think about this? I have been filing this whole thing under Who Are These People because of the ones who named the buffalo. But it seems that some legitimate people are lending credibility to the matter. Does anyone know the people who are supposed to be the spiritual guardians of these buffalo?

Here's a letter from Tamra's group telling you to email her if there's questions. She's pretty "up" on all these things and she will answer any and all questions that she has an answer to.

If you guys haven't visited the website, there are several statements on there, including one from Arvol and more to come within the next few days. If anyone has any questions, please let me know. Hopefully folks around the world will listen and read what these spiritual leaders across the country are saying...... believe me, this is very real folks. We have been on the phone non stop for weeks with these spiritual leaders and their messages are very powerful statements. Many have not formally issued statements yet, but will in their own time, but they have talked to us on the phone about what they were told in ceremony, every single message is the same, from every Nation.

Now its up to each individual to make their own decisions, and hopefully understand what these messages mean for the future of the people.

In peace & solidarity,
Tamra

----- Original Message -----
From: tamra@NDNnews. com

 

#5 Nov-14-2007 08:46:am

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11114

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

Well I'll be the skeptic then. I'm not buying the virgin births at all. Maybe under different circumstances, but not here. My husband was the manager of a huge farm when I met him. Artifically inseminating a cow isn't a big deal at all, done all the time.

I left out my big explanation about artifical insemination in rural Pa. because it just didn't sound right.

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#6 Nov-14-2007 09:23:am

bls926
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From: Texas
Registered: Oct-21-2006
Posts: 12082

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

Oh, I'm skeptical. As I said before, I remember when the calf was born and the Lenape name it was given, especially considering the people who were involved. Also wondering why they'd add this new twist to the calf's origins, a year after he was born. Their 15 minutes in the limelight were finished? Not enough visitors to their zoo now?  Not making enough money from showing a normal white buffalo calf? Had to give the story a little added zip? I'd write it off as a total lie if it weren't for the fact that Tamra and Arvol have given their support to the calf. Of course, Jill and Sonny Herring may be playing them. It wouldn't be the first time good people were lied to and misled. I'm going to follow this story and think about it some more.

You're right, tree hugger, artificial insemination really is no big deal on any farm anywhere. Very few farms have a standing bull; most cows are artificially inseminated. That is probably what happened and the Herrings are lying about it.

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#7 Nov-14-2007 06:29:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11114

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

I'm just going to go ahead and say it because this has been bugging me.

1. We have non Lenapes giving a Lenape name to a Buffalo that isn't part of Lenape beliefs. I'll just stop short on this one, we've all said it before.

2. All of a sudden, now around Christmas (think Virgin Mary) two calves were virgin births? Like bls said why say that now, why not then. There is absolutely no test on this earth that can say how these calves were conceived now. Why is everyone just taking their word for it?

3. I'm honestly just trying to understand this one. Why is a Cherokee doing a Lakota Ceremony, I'm not real smart but is there a reason? As far as I know the white buffalo wasn't Cherokee either. Again just trying to understand.

4. This zoo is a business to these owners, nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't feel right.

I could go on but I won't. Everyone go ahead and smack me over the head for wondering but..

If it looks like a 3 ring circus, smells like one, and sounds like one..there is usually a guy in a tophat somewhere collecting admission.


*disclaimer I'm not inferring anything about Tamra or Arvol or others*

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#8 Nov-15-2007 12:59:am

bls926
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From: Texas
Registered: Oct-21-2006
Posts: 12082

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

Think you've put into words what we've all been thinking. I'm having a real hard time wrapping my head around this. It just doesn't feel right.

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#9 Nov-15-2007 06:54:am

vanillaindian
Guest

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

Another message from Tamra.

This is a VERY powerful message folks. I pray that folks are listening and hearing what all these spiritual leaders are saying, about what is happening and the messages that these two sacred buffalo have brought to the people. Spiritual Leaders from all Nations are being contacted about this miracle.

Please read our press release on our website www.buffalomessengers.com for additional details.

In peace & solidarity,

Tamra


A message from Kuuyux (Larry Merculieff), Messenger Aleut Nation regarding Virgin Births of White Buffalo and Black Buffalo in Pennsylvania

Please visit our website www.buffalomessengers.com to read additional spiritual leaders statements

This is a very important time for all human beings. We are being called by the Spirit Who Lives In All Things to restore the Sacred Hoop that has been broken, and we are now called to choose the path of materialism or Spirit. Our choice will determine the degree of suffering and pain we human beings will encounter in this lifetime as we transition into the new world that is about to be birthed. The appearance of the two white buffalo on the east coast at this time, and the way they were born, is a powerful sign that NOW is the time to bring attention to the human beings to turn our hearts and minds to the Original Teachings, the Natural Laws, and the Universal Law given to us by the Creator. The world's spiritual leaders and healers have read such signs and understand what it is we are facing as human beings at this time. Great changes are occurring on Mother Earth, and these changes are intensifying. Mother Earth herself is awakening from a deep sleep and will shake off what is not in alignment with Spirit. We will experience these changes in this lifetime. What is not in alignment with Spirit will be shaken off.

The appearance of the white and black buffalo on the east coast is a more urgent call to First Nation peoples around the world that now is the time to wake up from the reckless sleep of our spirit that has caused us to abandon our ways. It is an urgent call that says the time is NOW to vigorously restore our ceremonies, language, rites of passage, stories, art, prayer chants and songs, and Original Teachings given to the real human beings of all nations. With such sacred signs as the appearance of the white, and now the black buffalo, we are reminded that we are being guided and that we are not alone in this work. But, such signs are also a warning that it is time to wake up. Our ancestors, Mother Earth, White Buffalo Calf Woman, and our allies in the unseen worlds are with us and will help us do the work that must be done. Even the spirits of our ancestors are embodying in the young ones to help us during these times. We must bring the young ones back to the drum and ceremony to help them remember quickly who they are so they can join the forces aligned to help us.

We must awaken in spirit to remember who we are as messengers and caretakers of Mother Earth, and then to share these ways for all who have disconnected and fallen asleep. It is through this path that the First Nations people will be healed. This healing is from the inside and will not come from outside of each of us. The material world is external to us. The spiritual world is inside of us. In our sleep, we reversed where we look for answers and guidance.

The Original Teachings tell us that everyone is on their own sacred path. It is not for us to interfere with another's sacred path. And it tells us that the ways and language given to each First Nation caretaker where they live are all important in this work to help Mother Earth. There is a reason why each has been given their ways and that these ways should not be mixed with others. Each of the four sacred colors have been given their own unique gifts to help restore the broken hoop, just as each First Nation peoples have their unique gifts to offer at this time to restore the Sacred Hoop. Many First Nation peoples cannot see how their traditions and teachings are important in this great work, but they will come to see it. The Mayan nations are the masters of time and understand the applications of the Great Mayan Calendar and their knowledge of stars through time; the great Sioux traditions carry the teachings of White Buffalo Calf Woman and her sacred gift of the C'anupa; the Haudenosaunee carry the teachings of the Great Law of Peace; African nations carry knowledge of the first star beings, and so on. There is no First Nation without their significant gift. When the leaders of all traditions open their hearts and minds to share their ways in sacred gatherings, all will begin to see the importance of the traditions and gifts they carry, like pieces of a puzzle put back together. We cannot see the meaning of one piece until all the other pieces are put in place. It is time now to bring your part to share in the Great Council of Spirit that is mobilizing around the world.

For those who lament that they have lost their sacred ways, you will come to know that these ways were never lost. They have been kept for you in the unseen world, waiting for you to wake up in Spirit.

Let us all hold the vision, in alignment with Spirit, that Truth and Beauty are walking tall once again amongst all human beings and let us show our deepest gratitude for that. As we seek to touch the hearts of all human beings, let us remember that we must not seek to fight evil, but to let goodness take its place. This is the good way taught to us in the Original Teachings.

Kuuyux (Larry Merculieff)
Messenger Aleut Nation

 

#10 Nov-15-2007 08:48:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11114

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

The Original Teachings tell us that everyone is on their own sacred path. It is not for us to interfere with another's sacred path. And it tells us that the ways and language given to each First Nation caretaker where they live are all important in this work to help Mother Earth. There is a reason why each has been given their ways and that these ways should not be mixed with others.

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#11 Nov-15-2007 09:24:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11114

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

This will probably be the last time I comment on this, first because I have no business doing it. I just hope everyone concerned will remember where this all started. Yes what all these leaders are saying is an important and valid point.

I hope someone takes the time to check out if and how these buffalo were born, why is a more important point. You know what go ahead and shoot me I'm saying it.. why is everyone taking this zoo at their word? The story has changed so many times. First it was just fantastic that the "Lenape" named it, they had a contest to name it! Now we've got virgin births from breeders that no one knew before this happened? Has anyone even asked (or is it too incorrect to) why they'd be doing this, and what financial gain they are getting? I'm not saying they are, I'm just saying if someone told you they went abroad and stumbled over some religious Christian icon you would question it, wouldn't you?

I'm not trying to come off as a know it all or something, there are so many good important people involved in this.

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#12 Nov-15-2007 09:27:pm

tree hugger
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Posts: 11114

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

I lied, one more comment or I won't be able to sleep.

Leave the Lakota beliefs to the Lakota, it's not ours it's theirs. It's not ours to know or share.

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#13 Nov-15-2007 10:22:pm

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 975

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

So this Tamra Brennan that is making all these press releases and the web site is a respected and trusted individual in the Native community? What about Hawk Michael Spisak? It seems I've heard the name before but can't quite remember where.

I know of Arvol, but am not familiar with some of the other leaders who are speaking out. Honestly, the statement from Charles Chipps reads a lot like some of the stuff people have posted from wannabe web sites in the past. As I said, I am not familiar with him so I mean no irreverence.

And I have wondered from the beginning why the Lakota in attendance tolerated the Lenape naming of the buffalo; or perhaps they were too polite to make an issue of it?


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#14 Nov-16-2007 09:01:am

vanillaindian
Guest

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

So this Tamra Brennan that is making all these press releases and the web site is a respected and trusted individual in the Native community? What about Hawk Michael Spisak? It seems I've heard the name before but can't quite remember where.

Tamra is  very strong and active for her people. Not sure about the rest of the people mentioned but I DO know that Tamra would check these people out before advocating anything they said.  She runs one of the biggest news lists on the internet. www.NDNnews.com. She's also tireless!

 

#15 Nov-17-2007 11:21:am

vanillaindian
Guest

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

From Tamra:


I am finding this very interesting and also very curious, how people just are not getting the significance of all of this. Is it denial, or is it that folks just think all of this is a hoax, or do people need a clearer wake up call about what is, and has been happening. Two sacred animals have been born, one white, one black, they are both virgin births and miracles. Every spiritual leader, from many Nations that we have contacted, have taken this info into their own ceremony's, to ask the creator in their own ways, what the meaning behind all of this is. Each and every one of them, has been given the exact same message. This is very real and it does relate to what is happening in our world today. This is not just a ndn issue, it is a humanitarian issue. This has a global significance. These prophecies have been seen by many people, many cultures across the globe for thousands of years. They all point to the same direction, within the same timeline.... ......tell me how this can possibly be coquenadences.

We as a people used to listen and pay attention to what our traditional spiritual leaders had to say, we followed their instructions, we respected them. Today, it appears that people are so assimilated and so far removed from who they are......... ..they just don't get it, even when its put right before them.

I know alot of folks are sitting back and saying well, the white buffalo prophecies are Lakota...... .so none of this matters to me........well I got news for everyone, this does affect you, your loved ones and everything as we know it. Not all of these spiritual leaders are Lakota, but every one of them is very concerned and is taking this to their own people as well. There have been ceremonies going on all over the country, even in Canada about this issue. Elders, spiritual leaders, clan mothers have gathered to discuss this among themselves and their people. You want interesting, try calling a spiritual leader and have them already waiting for you to call, know why, and the answers, before you even tell them about it.....when there is no possible way they could have been told and you have never met or spoken to them previously.. ......... .that's real and it happened. We have had spiritual leaders that were told about this in their ceremonies, before we even called them........ ...we have had spiritual leaders that had already seen this in a vision. These folks are not Lakota. This is real........ ......... ..no sure how much more I can say, but that.

I would like to ask everyone in here, to take this to their recognized spiritual leaders of your Nation, ask them to pray about this, and contact us if they choose to do so. Please give them our info, the statement that we sent out. People need to know about what has happened, they need to be informed of the details, then its up to each person to make up their own minds, what they are going to believe, and/or do about it. Email me off list if you want, call me, whatever it takes to get this thru to folks!

Call it what you want, miracles do happen...... ..I know this for a fact.

Hopefully people can find their ways back to their own ceremonies, their own ways and spirituality. Once people can begin to do these things, then they will discover and understand what this is all about. I did not grow up on a rez, didn't even grow up with my own people, creator lead me on the path I am on, and lead me back to these ways......so I know somehow, someway it is possible.

If you haven't had a chance to go to the website, check it out, read the statements on there.

 

#16 Nov-17-2007 08:08:pm

Tsalagi_NDN
Member
Registered: Nov-17-2007
Posts: 9

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

Hello TreeHugger,

Well, I will be happy to answer all of your questions. I will respond to each, just below your questions. Hopefully it will help clarify your concerns.

In peace & solidarity,
Tamra


tree hugger wrote:

I'm just going to go ahead and say it because this has been bugging me.

1. We have non Lenape's giving a Lenape name to a Buffalo that isn't part of Lenape beliefs. I'll just stop short on this one, we've all said it before.

response:
We are NOT affiliated with, nor do we have anything to do with the Lenape's that were involved in the naming ceremony for the white buffalo. We were made aware of the buffalo being born after they did this. They approached the zoo right after the white calf was born and asked to do the naming, why I have no idea, you would have to ask them. The zoo knows nothing about ndn's, ndn culture, ndn spirituality, or who is or who is not ndn........so, they agreed, not knowing or understanding the dynamics of the issue. I don't know anything about these "Lenape" folks at all, so I won't judge them, one way or another. If someone knows them personally and can state that they are not, then so be it.   


2. All of a sudden, now around Christmas (think Virgin Mary) two calves were virgin births? Like bls said why say that now, why not then. There is absolutely no test on this earth that can say how these calves were conceived now. Why is everyone just taking their word for it?

response:
Not sure what Christmas has to do with this.......
Yes, I can see how folks would question the timing on this. There is a rare case when animals do become pregnant, without a male impregnating them. The zoo felt that the first birth (the white buffalo) could have been a result from this uncommon anomaly which is called, parthenogenesis. Its very rare, but it does occur. In the spring when the second calf (the black one w/white legs) was born, again without any male involvement. They began to re-think and wonder if there was something else, non scientific occurring here. We were not made aware of the details of no male, etc......until just a couple months ago. They came to us and let us know about these details and asked for our help, they were just as confused about it all as anyone else, but felt it was important to share with us. You are talking about non ndn's who work in a scientific field of zoology, they just kept thinking their had to be a scientific answer for these occurrences. Again, they know nothing about ndn culture nor do they even begin to understand the spiritual aspect of what has, and is transpiring here. When we found all of this out, we were stunned and immediately told them we have to alert every spiritual leader that we can about this. They were agreeable........not that they believe or understand that this is a miracle.......they are still confused and thinking there has to be another answer.

All I can say is that we have contacted recognized spiritual leaders from many Nations across the country and even into Canada about this. Many of them were just as stunned as we are and have taken this info into their own ceremonies to ask for answers and validation. Each and every single one of them came back with the same answer.........this is very real and these two buffalo were brought here by the spirits as a warning to the people. They all validated thru ceremony that this is legit, I think that Creator's word is all a person should need. We had made contact with one spiritual leader, they had just gotten out of their own ceremony (not related to this) they were told by Creator, that we would be contacting him, what it was about and the answers........all before we even contacted him. He knew all about it when we first called him....you talk about freaky, there is no possible way this person could have known anything about this, nobody knew and he was one of the first persons contacted....that was confirmation enough for us folks. I know this is real folks, that's all I can say. Each of you can make your own decisions for yourself.

In the old days, we used to listen to our spiritual leaders and what they had to say, warn us about, teach us, etc........today, it seems like all people do is question and debate them. There are many statements on our website, if you want to read them. There are many folks that have not written or given us their statements as of yet, but they will in their own time.

I would like to invite you all to take this to your own spiritual leaders of your Nations, ask them to pray about it, take it to ceremony, see what they come up with. Please feel free to give them my info, ask them to contact us if they would like to speak about this. Or ask their permission for us to speak with them, and we would be happy to contact them.  They are welcome to come here and see for themselves and we would be happy to host them here in our home.



3. I'm honestly just trying to understand this one. Why is a Cherokee doing a Lakota Ceremony, I'm not real smart but is there a reason? As far as I know the white buffalo wasn't Cherokee either. Again just trying to understand.


response:
First, what Lakota ceremony are you referring to that I am doing? There is no mention of ceremony in there. I am mixed blood Cherokee and was not raised within my own culture or ways. However, which ceremonies I have chosen to participate in or not,  is my own choice and business.
Yes, I do participate in many Lakota ceremonies, and have for many, many years. I am a VERY spiritual person, and walk as traditional of a path as possible in today's modern society. I have lived in South Dakota, lived on the rez, been to many ceremonies and am close to many traditional spiritual leaders, including Arvol. I spend every single day working on ndn issues, my entire life is consumed by helping the people any way I can, for me this is not a hobby or something to do because I am bored, this IS my life, each and every day. We were asked to come out here by Lakota spiritual leaders, to assist with this issue and to host any and all spiritual leaders, that may want to come for ceremony and to pray. We were chosen for this, why I dont know ask Creator. I know many people that are of other Nations, that choose to participate in Lakota ceremonies, there are thousands of people out there that are Sundancers, that are not Lakota. Many people, especially ones that were not raised within our own ways, seek what spirituality and ways makes sense to us, it maybe our own, it may not be.

These buffalo were not brought here just for the Lakota people, they were brought here for all people, all nations. Again, something that was confirmed by many spiritual leaders, including Lakota's.



4. This zoo is a business to these owners, nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't feel right.

I could go on but I won't. Everyone go ahead and smack me over the head for wondering but..

If it looks like a 3 ring circus, smells like one, and sounds like one..there is usually a guy in a tophat somewhere collecting admission.

response:
Yes, the zoo is a business, however I would like to mention something here. When the white buffalo was born, a local millionaire offered a life changing amount of money to the Herrings, to buy this white buffalo. They could have been set for life with this money, never worrying again about anything, ever. However, they are respectable and very humble people, and their response and answer to this person was NO. If they were in this for the money, they certainly could have accepted this money, but they DIDN'T. That should tell you all something about their character and who they are. How many people do you know, especially white people, that would turn down a life changing amount of money, in the name of honor? 


*disclaimer I'm not inferring anything about Tamra or Arvol or others*

response:
Thank you Tree Hugger, I appreciate your support.

I hope this bit of info helps to clarify everyones concerns, questions or debates. If you have any others, I would be happy to answer them.

I don't claim to have all the answers, or know everything about what is transpiring. What I do know is that I have been put on this path for a reason, beleive me I didn't wake up one day and say hey.....think I will do this today.....I was perfectly content where I was and what I was doing, but obviously when Creator has other plans for what your doing......ya have no choice in the matter.......lol........so here I am.


In peace & solidarity,
Tamra

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#17 Nov-17-2007 08:20:pm

Tsalagi_NDN
Member
Registered: Nov-17-2007
Posts: 9

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

Hmm . . . .  Among the people I hang out with, this has never been an issue. 
Maybe it's just me, but . . .



Hi Mark,

I am confused here......what has never been a issue?

Regards,
Tamra

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#18 Nov-17-2007 09:10:pm

Tsalagi_NDN
Member
Registered: Nov-17-2007
Posts: 9

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

I have another thought, that I forgot to include in my response......

The question was about why I am Cherokee and doing Lakota ceremonies........

why do ndn's follow Christianity? That's not our way. Especially since they are responsible for the assimilation and genocide of our ancestors? I have seen full blooded ndn's that follow Christianity instead of the traditional ways. That one has always baffled me.....however, I strongly feel that it is every persons right to pray or follow whatever way they are comfortable in. It doesn't have to make sense to me, that's between them and their Creator.

just a thought........ok I am done now..........lol

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#19 Nov-17-2007 10:16:pm

Tsalagi_NDN
Member
Registered: Nov-17-2007
Posts: 9

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

mark wrote:

Tsalagi_NDN wrote:

Hmm . . . .  Among the people I hang out with, this has never been an issue. 
Maybe it's just me, but . . .



Hi Mark,

I am confused here......what has never been a issue?

Regards,
Tamra

White Bison, and other people's sacred ways.  I hang out in Seneca Country.
While everyone respects others' beliefs, they don't spend a lot of time getting involved in other people's ways. Our sweats have a decidedly western flavor to them many times, but still, we don't practice Lakots ways, or Cherokee ways etc. etc. We tend to stick to what our ancestors pass down to us.  I truly don't know anyone , here on any of the Seneca reservations or communities that gets excited over the birth of White Buffalo calves.  They don't discount them but the don't hold them to be personally sacred, they say that's the Lakota's way, and leave it at that.
Am I making any sense??
I mean, how many people from west of the Mississippi know of Handsome Lake, or care about his teachings?  Think about it . . .

ahhhhhh.ok........
You are very lucky Mark, to have been raised and follow your own people's ways. I do understand completely what you are saying, not all of us were or have had that opportunity.

As I mentioned in my post earlier yes, the White Buffalo is a Lakota phophecy........however as I mentioned these buffalo have come as a warning to all people, all nations, not just Lakota. Spiritual leaders from many Nations have been contacted about this, they all agree the same thing.
I have heard of several non Lakota spiritual leaders, including Hopi and Dineh having visions of white buffalo.

Don't know what else to say, except its up to each person to make their own decision about the reality of these phopecies coming to light or not. They have been around for thousands of years from many cultures across world........how can they all be wrong? This is not just a ndn issue, this is a global issue. Guess time will tell, eh...........

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#20 Nov-18-2007 09:45:am

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11114

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

Well welcome Tamra.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions. I have to say I'm a little surprised that you took all that time and effort for this little old forum. I'll read over what you've said and be back.

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#21 Nov-18-2007 10:43:am

Tsalagi_NDN
Member
Registered: Nov-17-2007
Posts: 9

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

tree hugger wrote:

Well welcome Tamra.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions. I have to say I'm a little surprised that you took all that time and effort for this little old forum. I'll read over what you've said and be back.

Thanks for the welcome, I apprecaite it.

This is a important issue. I think it's important if folks anywhere have concerns, questions or even comments, they get the answers to them directly from the source. I just wish that folks would have emailed me and aksed me these questions, instead of sitting around wondering about them. You know how the gossip and rumors end up in ndn country, I don't want this ending up a mis-contrued and inaccurate issue. So, here I am. I noticed that some of the same folks in here were also posing these same questions over in the indianz.com message board, along with some other folks that are doing the usual unjustified attacks........sigh........I will be responding over there as well.

It's understandable that folks may have alot of questions, or want additional info, I am here to help how I can. I will also contribute where I can with other topics and threads as well.

Regards,
Tamra

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#22 Nov-18-2007 02:04:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11114

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

Well I'm back. hmm

First Tamra I want you to understand anything I say is out of concern and not meant in a bad way. The message that everyone is trying to get across is an important one!

You said:

We are NOT affiliated with, nor do we have anything to do with the Lenape's that were involved in the naming ceremony for the white buffalo. We were made aware of the buffalo being born after they did this. They approached the zoo right after the white calf was born and asked to do the naming, why I have no idea, you would have to ask them. The zoo knows nothing about ndn's, ndn culture, ndn spirituality, or who is or who is not ndn........so, they agreed, not knowing or understanding the dynamics of the issue. I don't know anything about these "Lenape" folks at all, so I won't judge them, one way or another. If someone knows them personally and can state that they are not, then so be it.

I did not say that you were affiliated with them, I was trying to say that from day one this has been a big concern. I'm not sure if you are aware of the extent of these groups in Pa and Ohio, some surrounding states. There is real damage being done by them. Not only cultural theft, they hurt people emotionally, financially, and more. That's a fact. One ounce of credibility of any kind toward any of them, hurts a lot of people.  Just the fact that you are involved in this now and their name will always be associated with this calf, you're going to have to get used to people seeing the two together. That bothers me, nothing you can do to take away the fact that they were/are involved though. I suspect that a lot more will be involved too. Just yesterday I mapped out at least seven of these groups within driving distance of the zoo, and that only took me three minutes.

I'm not going to copy all of number 2. I think all I'm going to say on that point is anything I say is going to be turned into an attack on the Herrings. Yes, I know what parthenogenesis is and it is very rare, let alone to happen twice. All I'm saying is that even looking at it scientifically, I would have still said something.

3. I'm honestly just trying to understand this one. Why is a Cherokee doing a Lakota Ceremony, I'm not real smart but is there a reason? As far as I know the white buffalo wasn't Cherokee either. Again just trying to understand.
response:First, what Lakota ceremony are you referring to that I am doing? There is no mention of ceremony in there. I am mixed blood Cherokee and was not raised within my own culture or ways. However, which ceremonies I have chosen to participate in or not, is my own choice and business. Yes, I do participate in many Lakota ceremonies, and have for many, many years. I am a VERY spiritual person, and walk as traditional of a path as possible in today's modern society. I have lived in South Dakota, lived on the rez, been to many ceremonies and am close to many traditional spiritual leaders, including Arvol. I spend every single day working on ndn issues, my entire life is consumed by helping the people any way I can, for me this is not a hobby or something to do because I am bored, this IS my life, each and every day. We were asked to come out here by Lakota spiritual leaders, to assist with this issue and to host any and all spiritual leaders, that may want to come for ceremony and to pray. We were chosen for this, why I dont know ask Creator. I know many people that are of other Nations, that choose to participate in Lakota ceremonies, there are thousands of people out there that are Sundancers, that are not Lakota. Many people, especially ones that were not raised within our own ways, seek what spirituality and ways makes sense to us, it maybe our own, it may not be. These buffalo were not brought here just for the Lakota people, they were brought here for all people, all nations. Again, something that was confirmed by many spiritual leaders, including Lakota's.

This :

They were sent to the Eastern Door, the Eastern part of the continent, with a ceremonial drum, a traditional staff, and a sacred c'anunpa (a sacred Lakota prayer pipe) to aid them in their commission.

I guess I just don't understand why you would or want to be using a canumpa.
And my biggest problem is this seeking what spirituality and ways make sense that aren't our own. Whether it be Lakota, Cherokee, Lenape, whatever. They aren't ours to have. You can not compare Christianity to Native American spirituality. Christianity is a religion, anyone is free to be a Christian, a Jew, Muslim..what have you. The biggest problem is that all Nations lost a lot of what they had by people taking and stealing. Their sacred items, their legends, their heritage and their ceremony is just that theirs. I'm not a real intelligent person but, just because we seek something that's missing and identify with something, doesn't mean we should just take it. It just doesn't feel right, to me.  Please note the to ME.
I guess we can agree to disagree on that. I think there are people out there that will agree with me. Problem is by advocating mixing and ..well panindianism..we'd be giving credence to every wannabee, and overnight group out there.

4. This zoo is a business to these owners, nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't feel right.I could go on but I won't. Everyone go ahead and smack me over the head for wondering but..If it looks like a 3 ring circus, smells like one, and sounds like one..there is usually a guy in a tophat somewhere collecting admission.response:

Yes, the zoo is a business, however I would like to mention something here. When the white buffalo was born, a local millionaire offered a life changing amount of money to the Herrings, to buy this white buffalo. They could have been set for life with this money, never worrying again about anything, ever. However, they are respectable and very humble people, and their response and answer to this person was NO. If they were in this for the money, they certainly could have accepted this money, but they DIDN'T. That should tell you all something about their character and who they are. How many people do you know, especially white people, that would turn down a life changing amount of money, in the name of honor?

Well ok then, but again you're just taking someone at their word.How do you really know what is going on here. Maybe I've seen too much, but something just doesn't feel right to me.

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#23 Nov-18-2007 02:14:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11114

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

Tsalagi_NDN wrote:

tree hugger wrote:

Well welcome Tamra.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions. I have to say I'm a little surprised that you took all that time and effort for this little old forum. I'll read over what you've said and be back.

Thanks for the welcome, I apprecaite it.

This is a important issue. I think it's important if folks anywhere have concerns, questions or even comments, they get the answers to them directly from the source. I just wish that folks would have emailed me and aksed me these questions, instead of sitting around wondering about them. You know how the gossip and rumors end up in ndn country, I don't want this ending up a mis-contrued and inaccurate issue. So, here I am. I noticed that some of the same folks in here were also posing these same questions over in the indianz.com message board, along with some other folks that are doing the usual unjustified attacks........sigh........I will be responding over there as well.

It's understandable that folks may have alot of questions, or want additional info, I am here to help how I can. I will also contribute where I can with other topics and threads as well.

Regards,
Tamra

I don't see anything wrong with people discussing things. I used to work for some juvenile justice groups were this was the entire problem. People never felt free to discuss and give their own opinions. All of us came from a different walk of life, and had different takes on things. I saw so many things happen bad that way, I do understand what you mean though.

From that I just learned it's always better for people to say what they think and question, it's the only way to learn. smile  I've had the biggest disagreements with the closest of friends.

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#24 Nov-18-2007 04:36:pm

Tsalagi_NDN
Member
Registered: Nov-17-2007
Posts: 9

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

`

tree hugger wrote:

Well I'm back. hmm

First Tamra I want you to understand anything I say is out of concern and not meant in a bad way. The message that everyone is trying to get across is an important one!

reponse:
ok, no problem, I am not taking this personally. Please don't take mine personally as well. It's so hard to relay everything I want to say, like this. so, please bare with me here.


You said:

We are NOT affiliated with, nor do we have anything to do with the Lenape's that were involved in the naming ceremony for the white buffalo. We were made aware of the buffalo being born after they did this. They approached the zoo right after the white calf was born and asked to do the naming, why I have no idea, you would have to ask them. The zoo knows nothing about ndn's, ndn culture, ndn spirituality, or who is or who is not ndn........so, they agreed, not knowing or understanding the dynamics of the issue. I don't know anything about these "Lenape" folks at all, so I won't judge them, one way or another. If someone knows them personally and can state that they are not, then so be it.

I did not say that you were affiliated with them, I was trying to say that from day one this has been a big concern. I'm not sure if you are aware of the extent of these groups in Pa and Ohio, some surrounding states. There is real damage being done by them. Not only cultural theft, they hurt people emotionally, financially, and more. That's a fact. One ounce of credibility of any kind toward any of them, hurts a lot of people.  Just the fact that you are involved in this now and their name will always be associated with this calf, you're going to have to get used to people seeing the two together. That bothers me, nothing you can do to take away the fact that they were/are involved though. I suspect that a lot more will be involved too. Just yesterday I mapped out at least seven of these groups within driving distance of the zoo, and that only took me three minutes.


reponse:
I understand the concern, beleive me we have discussed this between ourselves as well. Unfortunetly we can not undo what has already been done before us, their involment with the zoo is not our choice. I am fully aware of the yahoo's that are in this area and the damage that they do, that's part of why we were asked to come here and take care of these things, so they were done right. The zoo has respected that, and allowed us to handle this instead of anyone from the Lenape group, I don't think they were even made aware of it. I cant even begin to imagine the craziness that would have occured if they would have handled this......omg.

We were asked to take care of this by the Spiritual leaders, so that is what we are going to do. We will continue to make it very clear, under every circumstance that we are not affliated with the Lenape's in any way. That's all we can do is keep moving forward and doing what we were asked to do. If we walk away simply becuase it may give them some sort of validation or credibility, then they win, becuase they will be the only ones left here to take this on. So, we continue to stand on our own and hold our ground, people hopefully should be able to recongize the difference. If they don't, well then maybe they should get to know us, then they will learn the truth.


I'm not going to copy all of number 2. I think all I'm going to say on that point is anything I say is going to be turned into an attack on the Herrings. Yes, I know what parthenogenesis is and it is very rare, let alone to happen twice. All I'm saying is that even looking at it scientifically, I would have still said something.


response:
Again, they are not ndn, so none of the spiritual aspect of this even crossed their minds. We can not speak for why they did or did not make the connection or realize what has happened. We have made them aware of this concern that folks have and asked them to write their own statement about this. That's all I can do at this point.


3. I'm honestly just trying to understand this one. Why is a Cherokee doing a Lakota Ceremony, I'm not real smart but is there a reason? As far as I know the white buffalo wasn't Cherokee either. Again just trying to understand.
response:First, what Lakota ceremony are you referring to that I am doing? There is no mention of ceremony in there. I am mixed blood Cherokee and was not raised within my own culture or ways. However, which ceremonies I have chosen to participate in or not, is my own choice and business. Yes, I do participate in many Lakota ceremonies, and have for many, many years. I am a VERY spiritual person, and walk as traditional of a path as possible in today's modern society. I have lived in South Dakota, lived on the rez, been to many ceremonies and am close to many traditional spiritual leaders, including Arvol. I spend every single day working on ndn issues, my entire life is consumed by helping the people any way I can, for me this is not a hobby or something to do because I am bored, this IS my life, each and every day. We were asked to come out here by Lakota spiritual leaders, to assist with this issue and to host any and all spiritual leaders, that may want to come for ceremony and to pray. We were chosen for this, why I dont know ask Creator. I know many people that are of other Nations, that choose to participate in Lakota ceremonies, there are thousands of people out there that are Sundancers, that are not Lakota. Many people, especially ones that were not raised within our own ways, seek what spirituality and ways makes sense to us, it maybe our own, it may not be. These buffalo were not brought here just for the Lakota people, they were brought here for all people, all nations. Again, something that was confirmed by many spiritual leaders, including Lakota's.

This :

They were sent to the Eastern Door, the Eastern part of the continent, with a ceremonial drum, a traditional staff, and a sacred c'anunpa (a sacred Lakota prayer pipe) to aid them in their commission.

I guess I just don't understand why you would or want to be using a canumpa.
And my biggest problem is this seeking what spirituality and ways make sense that aren't our own. Whether it be Lakota, Cherokee, Lenape, whatever. They aren't ours to have. You can not compare Christianity to Native American spirituality. Christianity is a religion, anyone is free to be a Christian, a Jew, Muslim..what have you. The biggest problem is that all Nations lost a lot of what they had by people taking and stealing. Their sacred items, their legends, their heritage and their ceremony is just that theirs. I'm not a real intelligent person but, just because we seek something that's missing and identify with something, doesn't mean we should just take it. It just doesn't feel right, to me.  Please note the to ME.
I guess we can agree to disagree on that. I think there are people out there that will agree with me. Problem is by advocating mixing and ..well panindianism..we'd be giving credence to every wannabee, and overnight group out there.


response:
These things were given bestowed upon my other half, not me, although he was already a pipe carrier prior to this. I am personally not a pipe carrier, nor will I ever be. That is not something that I take lightly at all. The sacred pipe is not just a Lakota ceremonial item, many Tribes use the sacred pipe, just as many Tribes have the sweat lodges, in their own ways. I have smoked the sacred pipe in various ceremonies many times, that is not anything usual. Anyway, I will not get into detailed discussion about ceremonies in a public forum, so that's where I will end with this part. 


4. This zoo is a business to these owners, nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't feel right.I could go on but I won't. Everyone go ahead and smack me over the head for wondering but..If it looks like a 3 ring circus, smells like one, and sounds like one..there is usually a guy in a tophat somewhere collecting admission.response:

Yes, the zoo is a business, however I would like to mention something here. When the white buffalo was born, a local millionaire offered a life changing amount of money to the Herrings, to buy this white buffalo. They could have been set for life with this money, never worrying again about anything, ever. However, they are respectable and very humble people, and their response and answer to this person was NO. If they were in this for the money, they certainly could have accepted this money, but they DIDN'T. That should tell you all something about their character and who they are. How many people do you know, especially white people, that would turn down a life changing amount of money, in the name of honor?

Well ok then, but again you're just taking someone at their word.How do you really know what is going on here. Maybe I've seen too much, but something just doesn't feel right to me.

response:
Believe me, I have seen way to much as well, in addtion to having many, many years expierence in the wildlife field. I can be just as much of a critic on a issue as anyone else, most people that know me will agree to that.......lol.....I have been known to take on a newager or two...however, I can completely understand how folks may not believe what is being said by the Herrings, since they don't know them personally. However, we do know them and have spent alot of time, sitting with them talking to them about all of these things, hoping to help them understand the signifiance of all this. My other half has known them longer than I. So, we know what and who they are, as people and can make more of a judgement call, than someone who has never met them at all. 

Let's look at another aspect of this. Let me ask you this...........there are spiritual leaders across the country that we have spoke to about this. They have taken this into ceremony to ask the Creator for answers and vaildation of these things. Do you honestly think that if this wasn't legit, and we were being lied to, that they wouldn't receive that message in ceremony? They would know this in a second, if there was anything fabricated in this. However, each of them received a message that this was real and these two buffalo were sent here by the spirits as a clear warning to the people. Are you saying that all of these spiritual leaders are wrong? Is Arvol wrong? There are many factors of the ceremonial part of this, that I won't discuss here. But what I can tell you is that there are ceremonial people, including non Lakota's, that knew of this, had visions of this, before any of us knew anything about it. Are all of these people wrong? I believe in my spirituality, I have seen and expierenced way to much in my lifetime to question it, or not give validation to all of these spiritual leaders. I may not understand everything that has happened, believe me, I am pretty overwhelmed with all of this, and on top of it, my reputation is on the line with this. I left South Dakota, a place that is dear to me, left living at Bear Butte, a place that means more to me than I can explain, to do this, to come to the East coast to be involved with these two buffalo. So, I am relying on faith here and that Creator took me away from all of that, and put me here for a reason. But, I have learned long ago that it will all make sense, when it's suppose to. This is part of the problem in today's society, many people nowadays are non believers in these ways. I have seen and expierenced to many things over the years, that would make alot of people's skin crawl and they would run like heck from. But I keep the faith and know that, its Creator that is doing all of this, and I just have to keep stepping forward, that's all I can do.


Well, hopefully this begins to make sense. As you mentioned we can certainly agree to disagree, that is fine to. I think its important that even if we don't agree, that we still can respect where each person is coming from.


In peace & solidarity,
Tamra

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#25 Nov-18-2007 05:15:pm

Tsalagi_NDN
Member
Registered: Nov-17-2007
Posts: 9

Re: Animals and Anomalies, Prophecy and Miracles./Hawk and Nemacolin

Just wanted to clarify, in my last paragraph.......I was not implying in any way that you or anyone on this board, do not follow or understand the spiritual ways. It was meant to be more of a general statement, that this is a issue throughout ndn country and this is why these things are happening. 

Regards,
Tamra

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