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#26 Aug-05-2009 05:09:pm

Revjohnjoseph
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Registered: Aug-05-2009
Posts: 4

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Dear Old Salty, I believe you're also on the Geneology and Coincience string. I told my story there and am trying to track down more information on my maternal great grandmother Joanna Bills. Apparently the Dutch Bills family was big in the Pines of Central Jersey above Camden and below Freehold. She was married in the town of Blue Ball, now Adelphia, Ocean County in the middle of the Pines. Do you know anything of this family, or can you suggest any leads? Thanks.

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#27 Aug-05-2009 10:45:pm

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
Registered: Dec-01-2006
Posts: 901

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Revjohnjoseph wrote:

Dear Old Salty, I believe you're also on the Geneology and Coincience string. I told my story there and am trying to track down more information on my maternal great grandmother Joanna Bills. Apparently the Dutch Bills family was big in the Pines of Central Jersey above Camden and below Freehold. She was married in the town of Blue Ball, now Adelphia, Ocean County in the middle of the Pines. Do you know anything of this family, or can you suggest any leads? Thanks.

Welcome Revjohnjoseph.
I havnt heard of the Bills family in Dutch Records so I had a bit of a look through search.
It appears the earliest Bills family in New York may have been the late 1600s after the English took over however there was a William Bills that arrived in Barnstable Massachusetts around 1620 on a boat called the Griffin.Many of these early families seem to have migrated into New York and New Jersey within the next couple of generations.Most likely religious turmoil or leaving old beliefs behind.
I saw reference to Middletown Dutch Reform Church also so maybe this Dutch reference may be from that or perhaps a marriage.I will look a little more but maybe Ssschaak has found something more relevent.
Old Salty

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#28 Aug-06-2009 12:23:am

Revjohnjoseph
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Registered: Aug-05-2009
Posts: 4

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

big_smile Thanks so much! I can't recall the exact reference sight, but the Bills feture prominently when I Google Indian Mills New Jersey. I'm going to try the Dutch Reformed Church as to records from Blue Ball as well as look more into Indian Mills. By the way, I did my first two years of seminary at New Brunswick Theological which is RCA, formerly Dutch Reformed. Though distinct from it, it's the parent institution of Rutgers University and on the Old Queen's campus. There's a lot of history there.

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#29 Aug-06-2009 05:09:pm

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
Registered: Dec-01-2006
Posts: 901

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Revjohnjoseph wrote:

big_smile Thanks so much! I can't recall the exact reference sight, but the Bills feture prominently when I Google Indian Mills New Jersey. I'm going to try the Dutch Reformed Church as to records from Blue Ball as well as look more into Indian Mills. By the way, I did my first two years of seminary at New Brunswick Theological which is RCA, formerly Dutch Reformed. Though distinct from it, it's the parent institution of Rutgers University and on the Old Queen's campus. There's a lot of history there.

The van Dalsens(my lineage)were with the Dutch Reformed Church at Sleepy Hollow,  they were living at Harlem at the time, and then at Poughskeepie.In between there was a move to Orange County but not sure of records there.
Old Salty

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#30 Nov-18-2010 06:59:pm

oldsalty
Moderator
From: Long way from the Northern Hem
Registered: Dec-01-2006
Posts: 901

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

In 1784 when Zeisberger arrived at Detroit Matthew Dolsen loaned the Moravians money to buy flour with.
From "Wilderness Christians" by Gray, Zeisburger's words were "There are, we know, many wealthier gentlemen in this place than you are, who could help us if they would, but perhaps they are not so worthy of doing it. We ask that favour of you."

I still ask why David Zeisberger chose Matthew to do this and the quote came from Benjamin Mortimers journal who I believe was a diarist for Zeisberger at the time.

Matthews son my ancestor was born two years later 1786 and in 1791 boarded and did schooling at the mission at Die Warte near Detroit at the age of five.I think this was only a few months but his parents often visited from Detroit.It was the year before the mission move to Fairfield on the Thames.

Another settler Ebenezer Allen wanted to put his children into school at Fairfield in 1794 but was told by Zeisberger that...."but told him that in our mission it was a fixed rule to admit no white people".
Ref Ibid.,p345 Wilderness Christians.

As you can see there are some limited writings or translations that have made me speculate and I am not sure whether Diaries from Die Warte exist or have been translated.
Seems to be a gap in the Zeisberger diaries between the early 1780s and 1792 the Fairfield Diaries.

Any thoughts that may help me would be appreciated!!smile
Old Salty

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#31 Nov-18-2010 08:14:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4299
Website

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Brett writes: 

"Seems to be a gap in the Zeisberger diaries between the early 1780s and 1792 the Fairfield Diaries."

See:  Diary of David Zeisberger:  A Moravian Missionary among the Indians of Ohio (2 vols.), ed. & tr. by Eugene F. Bliss, Cincinnati, OH (1885).

This is Zeisberger's diary from 1781 to 1798.  The index does not seem to be comprehensive, but it does list seven entries for "Dolson."  I'm sure there are others in the text, which have not been indexed.

Last edited by sschkaak (Nov-18-2010 08:15:pm)

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#32 Nov-18-2010 08:34:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4299
Website

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Brett writes:

"Matthews son my ancestor was born two years later 1786 and in 1791 boarded and did schooling at the mission at Die Warte near Detroit at the age of five."

Here is the diary entry:

Saturday, 10 September 1791:  "Br. Sensemann conducted the Lord's supper, to whom Mr. Dolson has sent his two children to school."

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#33 Nov-19-2010 04:08:am

oldsalty
Moderator
From: Long way from the Northern Hem
Registered: Dec-01-2006
Posts: 901

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

sschkaak wrote:

Brett writes: 

"Seems to be a gap in the Zeisberger diaries between the early 1780s and 1792 the Fairfield Diaries."

See:  Diary of David Zeisberger:  A Moravian Missionary among the Indians of Ohio (2 vols.), ed. & tr. by Eugene F. Bliss, Cincinnati, OH (1885).

This is Zeisberger's diary from 1781 to 1798.  The index does not seem to be comprehensive, but it does list seven entries for "Dolson."  I'm sure there are others in the text, which have not been indexed.

Thanks sschkaak-
Found volume 1 on line and will see if I can find Volume 2 tomorrow which is the later years and Die Warte should be in those.
I will start searching for Sensemann writings or diaries from Die Warte also. It may be that he was English speaking that he taught Matthews sons.
Thanks again:)

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#34 Nov-19-2010 06:37:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4299
Website

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Yes.  The stay at Die Warte (mouth of the Detroit River) is covered in pages 180-255 of volume 2.  The quotation given is from page 213 of that volume.

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#35 Nov-22-2010 01:15:pm

oldsalty
Moderator
From: Long way from the Northern Hem
Registered: Dec-01-2006
Posts: 901

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

sschkaak wrote:

Yes.  The stay at Die Warte (mouth of the Detroit River) is covered in pages 180-255 of volume 2.  The quotation given is from page 213 of that volume.

Thanks sschaak found it online and some awesome information in both those volumes.
Allways find it hard to read books on line and prefer the real thing to get through and take in!neutral

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#36 Nov-23-2010 05:05:am

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
Registered: Dec-01-2006
Posts: 901

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

I heard this story about ten years ago and found this paragraph on a Chatham Museum exhibition site.
This was Matthews wife Hannah daughter of Loyalist George Field.Her mother had died sometime around Hannah's birth and her step mother had been previously married to an English surgeon named Jeremiah Johnson during the Indian Wars.He passed away from Smallpox but Im guessing some of his surgery skills may have been passed on through the step mum Rebecca Haines.Dover township was about 30 miles south of Fairfield and Matthew and Hannahs was known as The Settlement. I think Sarah Ainse property may have adjoined Matthews.

In 1792, Ann Smith of Dover Township was caught outside in an unexpected snow storm and, when found, both of her legs were badly frozen. She was taken to Hannah Dolsen, a woman known for her medicinal concoctions and herbal remedies. Hannah amputated the young girl’s legs with a carpenter’s saw on her kitchen table. While Ann lived into her 90s, the story reveals in no uncertain terms the deficiencies of health care in the early settlement years.

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#37 Mar-01-2011 05:50:pm

belleville
Visitor
Registered: Dec-21-2010
Posts: 3

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Oldsalty,

Your "Dagneau Dequindre, Roy lineages were mainly around the Detroit area". Here is what I have that is easy:

Dagneau de Qunidre dit Pontchartrain, Antoine
b. Aug. 24, 1751 in Détroit. Married Catherine Desriviere LaMorandiere.

Dagneau de Qunidre, Sieur Douville, Louis Cesarius
b. Oct. 8, 1704 at Sorel, France, d. Feb. 2, 1767 in Détroit. Was a trader on the Great Lakes in 1727. Married Marieanne Picote de Bellestre at Montreal in Dec. 4, 1736 in Montreal. As early as 1736 was at Detroit. Was at Fort Saint Joseph (MI) 1740-42 where family arrived. Partner with Marin. At Michilimackinac in 1747, supplied garrison. At Détroit in 1749, supplied garrison, much clothing. 1750 Détroit census. Resided at Rue de Ste. Anne. A close friend of Celoron. Was ceded Belle Isle, but lost it because of public outcry. Col. in Détroit Militia. Détroit militia in 1755 numbered 220. At Fort Duquesne in July 1756. De Quindre led the Détroit milice at the battle of La Belle Famille at Niagara. He was captured with his brother Maj. Guillaume Dagneau Douville de Lamothe. An inventory at death exists.

Dagneau Douville de Lamothe, Guillaume
b. 1706, and married at Montreal.  He was in Detroit by 1750. Major in the Détroit Militia. He was captured at the battle of La Belle Famille at Niagara.

Roy dit Châtelleraut, Edmond
Came with Cadillac in 1701.

Roy, François
Voyageur. 1750 census.

Roy, Marie Magdelaine
Dau. of Pierre Roy and Maguerite Ouabankikoue. m. May 25, 1728 at  Fort St. Phillipe, village of the Miamis (present day Fort Wayne, IN) to Pierre Chêne dit la Butte. She died of smallpox Oct. 20, 1732.

Roy dit Châtelleraut, Michel
Came with Cadillac in 1701.

Roy dit Châtelleraut, Pierre
Came with Cadillac in 1701. Détroit resident about 1702-3 with his Miami wife Marguerite Ouabankikave. Lots #50 & 51 at Ft. Pontchartrain, 1707.


Doc S.

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#38 Mar-02-2011 02:02:am

oldsalty
Moderator
From: Long way from the Northern Hem
Registered: Dec-01-2006
Posts: 901

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Thanks belleville for that great information.I have saved it for further reference at a later date when I can devote the time that is needed to piece all the information together!!
Dequindre dit Fontenay and his daughter Pelagia are of most interest as her son Jacob is the one that came to Australia.

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#39 Oct-10-2013 02:00:pm

NeoPaleo
Visitor
Registered: Oct-07-2013
Posts: 135

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

This thread is how I found your website.


What color corn do you grow?

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#40 Oct-13-2013 10:04:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11054

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Well hi there, and I'm glad you found us. It may be a bit slow here right now but feel free to enjoy the lull and get to know us. smile

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#41 Oct-30-2013 06:06:pm

Chevy
Member
Registered: Aug-01-2007
Posts: 1577

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

My Grandmother was of Dutch ancestry, but I know zero about her Father and his ancestors.

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#42 Nov-15-2014 11:16:am

NeoPaleo
Visitor
Registered: Oct-07-2013
Posts: 135

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

tree hugger wrote:

Well hi there, and I'm glad you found us. It may be a bit slow here right now but feel free to enjoy the lull and get to know us. smile

Well Hi, it has been a ride for me, I'll tell ya.

so ya, I was doing research on my personal surname and It looked like I was related to some early USA founders, but alas, I'm not though that specific line.
My surname came through Canada "Dauphin River First Nation" not sure if the man who came from that area was my actual blood or if he adopted an indian from Oregon (who was my grandfather) Ive lost the relevancy of specific tribal groups on my fathers side since I will probably never have the $ to prove it, and it seems everyone wants you to pick a tribe, no pan indianism new age crap, right?
That anti newage philosophy goes starkly against what the elders of days gone by foresaw, but whatever. I see what they were talking about.


What color corn do you grow?

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#43 Nov-15-2014 10:38:pm

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 968

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

I think we may walk in different worlds as far as the pan-Indian thing goes. I'm pretty sure your environs are different than mine. We might even define pan-Indian differently. So let me tell you where I came from on this.

Here in Pennsylvania, there are very few CDIB Indians. But there are a plethora of people eager to celebrate the heritage of an ancestor that was supposed to have been Native. These tend to coalesce into little groups, led by an individual who seems to know more than the others or possesses a charismatic enough personality that charms the others into line. The outcome of this is always an amalgam of traditions, real and imagined, that are supposed to represent real Native cultures and spiritual practices.

Example: Though I have been pursuing an understanding of Lenape culture and spirituality practically from the onset of my journey of discovering my wife's Native roots, the sweat lodge and pipe ceremonies I first learned are fundamentally Lakota (I say fundamentally because I'm not sure the Lakota would endorse these ceremonial practices either). Other cultural practices and ceremonies I have experienced were derived from diverse tribal sources.

The problem that I have with New Age spirituality and the pan-Indian practices I have described above is that it is an amalgam of complete systems, cultures and traditions. It is a "Chinese menu" approach to tribal identity and spirituality; selecting the practices, traditions and ceremonies that seem most interesting or powerful from various tribal traditions and cultures and discarding the portions that don't appeal. This method disregards the entirety of cultures and spiritual systems that are thousands of years in the making and reduces culture and spirituality to "whatever I want it to be". And in keeping with the philosophy of relativism that dominates the colonizer culture, the resulting amalgam is beyond question or reproof, even from people who are culturally qualified to do so (e.g. CDIB Native persons).

So, in my neighborhood, pan-Indian means that I decide that I am Lenape but I have no problem with appropriating cultural and ceremonial elements from any other tribal source I can find that appeals to me. So I practice the Lakota inipi and c'nunpa because I can find descriptions of these in books, and it is more difficult to find good descriptions of the Lenape versions of these practices. I may decide to build a medicine wheel or learn how to "go to water" (Cherokee) or assimilate the Native American Church. I may decide that I am a pipe-carrier or a roadman. And so it goes...

Is that what your definition of "pan-Indian" embraces?


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#44 Nov-16-2014 01:20:pm

NeoPaleo
Visitor
Registered: Oct-07-2013
Posts: 135

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

I'll try an answer your question in my own words.

It is a fact that tribal cultures  practice Syncretism (amalgam) in their belief systems. It is also a fact that the "medicine people" are not selling spirituality they are selling healing, which is normal in any culture. If a patent develops a spirituality because of an experience of being healed in some way, that is a gift from a greater spirit than just a practitioner.
I hope that answers your question.

The part of New Age that is truly bullshit in my opinion is this Jesus concept of savior medicine man who walks the earth giving away blessings and teachings for free. I particularly feel that that all established religious hierarchal systems are corrupt with human weakness and there is just no way to escape our humanness in these type of systems.

So an example in my own personal life is of my mothers grandmother, She was a leader in a religious hierarchal system of a tribe that was broken apart by another outside religious hierarchal system. Her family "clan" had been the leaders for thousands of generations before that event.
So, she was left a choice, stay and fight and risk losing more of her family than she already had or move on out. She moved to san francisco and became a Fortune Teller for profit, as did her daughter, and they continued to cut hair and tell fortunes and have day jobs.
Many generations of kiva culture doesn't just leave your biology because you go to a public school or assimilate into a foreign culture, believe that.

And I don't feel that her experience was unique aside from the kiva history, I feel there were many tribes over the course of the USA experience that went through similar events.

The similarity of 565 tribes is more real than the textbook beliefs that they are special unique little flowers that must be preserved, if that was the case there would be zero horse culture.

on a personal level
And the irony for me is this, All of my life in your system Ive been the outsider, I just trip people out and they all handle it uniquely, sometimes I'm just a weirdo, witch, freak, my favorite was Troglodyte. My own father was afraid me and my perceptions.
I went to councilor once and he said in session I hypnotized him, and I had already predicted that years ago. I used to keep a dream journal and into for ten years I noticed something, they all came true. I burned it.
But more often than not people gravitate towards me in public, and i don't have a sign around my neck advertising my ancestry.
I help when I can.tongue

Thats your new age in a nutshell big_smile

And while it literally hurts me to hear that a Man thinks his Language is extinct and therefore dead because no one knows how to speak it, I truly feel it is just quiet for now. I like how a great culture who worships symbols and other things that they create and had created thousands of years ago in a book and that book gets carried by their servants. There are certain powers in words regardless of your particular beliefs system, and to deny all of the power of knowledge because it doesn't belong to the culture of your ancestors is self censorship and leads to personal loss. And that loss is extinction not through a couple of generations anymore than we lose our Triune brain because we no longer practice cannibalism on the physical sense.


What color corn do you grow?

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#45 Nov-16-2014 01:31:pm

NeoPaleo
Visitor
Registered: Oct-07-2013
Posts: 135

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

when do i get a edit button?


What color corn do you grow?

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#46 Nov-16-2014 01:38:pm

NeoPaleo
Visitor
Registered: Oct-07-2013
Posts: 135

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

I had never heard the term pan indian before this forum mentioned it as an accusation to me, so how do you expect me to even know about it other than a bookmark I've yet to read, I think Reading The dragons of eden bumped itself up do to my last post.
You have to realize I think, feel, and see in pictures and everything I write is only translated from that.


What color corn do you grow?

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#47 Nov-16-2014 09:49:pm

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 968

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Perhaps you did not get the point of what I described.

Real medicine people, trained from youth in the culture of their people, may take the liberty of synchretizing elements from other cultures into their own practices. They understand how to connect them into their established practices and preserve the functionality of the whole.

People who decide, as adults, that they are medicine people and read a few books generally don't understand their own culture (assimilated or otherwise) well enough to synchretize elements of another culture into their own practices. If you don't understand your own culture, it is ludicrous to assimilate other cultures as well. You will not have a unified and functional medicine system to synchretize into; you will have a loosely associated collection of cultural elements that are only capable of eliciting a warm fuzzy feeling for the self-declared medicine person.


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#48 Nov-17-2014 07:29:am

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Suckachsinheet wrote:

Perhaps you did not get the point of what I described.

Real medicine people, trained from youth in the culture of their people, may take the liberty of synchretizing elements from other cultures into their own practices. They understand how to connect them into their established practices and preserve the functionality of the whole.

People who decide, as adults, that they are medicine people and read a few books generally don't understand their own culture (assimilated or otherwise) well enough to synchretize elements of another culture into their own practices. If you don't understand your own culture, it is ludicrous to assimilate other cultures as well. You will not have a unified and functional medicine system to synchretize into; you will have a loosely associated collection of cultural elements that are only capable of eliciting a warm fuzzy feeling for the self-declared medicine person.

Where's the "like" button!  I could not have said it better.
Some suriving spiritual practices among the Southeastern Tribes were synchretized with African spiritual practices hence "Hoodoo". My great grandparents practice some of it and you can see signs of it in my house that I left in place if I pointed it out to you, but I don't practice it.


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
---------------------------------------------------
      Warning:  Some Profanity
This might cause you to experience reason

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#49 Nov-18-2014 12:40:am

Chevy
Member
Registered: Aug-01-2007
Posts: 1577

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Yes, that was a very good post (Suckachsinheet's)

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#50 Nov-18-2014 07:55:pm

NeoPaleo
Visitor
Registered: Oct-07-2013
Posts: 135

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Suckachsinheet wrote:

Perhaps you did not get the point of what I described.

Real medicine people, trained from youth in the culture of their people, may take the liberty of synchretizing elements from other cultures into their own practices. They understand how to connect them into their established practices and preserve the functionality of the whole.

People who decide, as adults, that they are medicine people and read a few books generally don't understand their own culture (assimilated or otherwise) well enough to synchretize elements of another culture into their own practices. If you don't understand your own culture, it is ludicrous to assimilate other cultures as well. You will not have a unified and functional medicine system to synchretize into; you will have a loosely associated collection of cultural elements that are only capable of eliciting a warm fuzzy feeling for the self-declared medicine person.

Well, by your definition, that would make me a medicine person. I find it strange that you know so much about other nameless people that are technically strangers to you, but if thats your calling, more power to you.
FYI, I understand you completely, but you make it real difficult to answer a yes-no response that you obviously want when you conflate issues of personal, impersonal, and spiritual in one question.


What color corn do you grow?

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