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#1 Dec-02-2006 10:08:pm

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
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Dutch in New Amsterdam

Mark wrote-
I read this book earlier this year.  As a descendant of both the early Dutch and the Haudenosaunee, it was sort of a look into my own past.

Mark have you ever gotten further back with your first Dutch ancestor in America.In my case all we know about ours is he was called Gerrit of Workum and their are 4 possibilities for his son in New Amsterdam.That Dutch nameing system makes things tricky.
I wonder how many Lenape children were assimilated into Dutch New York in those early years especially when you had men like DeVries and van der Donck who appear to have had good relationships with various tribes and to a degree were trying to help them.
My ancestors soon went to the New England and on to Pennsylvania and were liveing around Manor of Sunbury or Wyoming at time of Revolution .They went to Canada and joined Butlers Rangers.
oldsalty

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#2 Dec-03-2006 11:44:pm

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
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Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Mark,
You must have had many family stories passed down first hand.I can see that your family was from around Albany and amidst Iriquoise when they first arrived from Netherlands.
My first Dutch ancestor in America was Captain Jans Gerritsen De Vries later known as van Dalsen in New Amsterdam around 1640. My first French Ancestor was in Canada and US possibly around the mid to late 1500s with the name Roy and later Dagneau Dequindre. My English ancestors were in Rhode Island or Long Island around 1635 with the name Field.
Several of my Field Dolsen family were with the Iriquoise at the Battle of Wyoming and being amongst the first at Niagara with Butlers Rangers.The problems appear to have arisen when they refused to join the Continental Army and in particular one or more refusing a Captains Commission.The My Dolsen lineage was very much associated with David Zeisburger and The Moravians of the Thames before and during the 1812 wars and the Battle of the Thames.They were fur traders and lived alongside Sally Hands or Haines of the Seneca and Matthew Dolsen and his wife Hannah Field often visited Fairfield Moraviantown.Their sons including my ancestorIsaac Matthew actually attended some schooling at the mission which is unusual being said to be white and also Methodist. The Dagneau Dequindre,Roy lineages were mainly around the Detroit Ohio areas with relationships amongst the Shawnee and Miami.
I have only been doing this about 5 years and the only history passed on was we were of French Canadian Indian ancestry.So as you can see I have still a lot to find and sought out.The excitement of discovering facts and history from Australia is exhilerating but nothing compared to being there ,experiencing and seeing things.
Embrace what you have and be proud of who you are as this knowledge gives you a greater understanding of the world and people.
oldsalty

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#3 Dec-12-2006 06:45:am

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
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Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

In his book, History of Wyoming, Charles Miner writes: “The prohibition [in 1773] on the part of Connecticut of any further emigration to Wyoming, there had come in strange families of interlopers from Minnisink, from West Chester, New York, Kinderhook and the Mohawk, neither connected with Pennsylvania or Connecticut, between whom and the old settlers there was neither sympathy of feeling, nor community of interests.”

The above passage refers to my ancestors without mentioning their names. I am attempting to unravel many mysteries of my ancestry and any thoughts would be appreciated.
They came from the Minnisink and West Chester areas around 1771 to Fishkill Creek and Sunbury area of Pennsylvania and were of Dutch and Quaker ancestry.Then after the trouble fled to Canada and joined Butlers Rangers  and then participated in the attack on Wyoming.
They just dont appear to be fitting in to the categories of Pennsylvania Dutch or Torie.
oldsalty

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#4 Dec-12-2006 09:04:am

tree hugger
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Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

oldsalty

I'm sure you've seen this site, thought I would post a link anyway.

Found this page quite interesting from a history point of view

http://www.rootsweb.com/~srgp/books/wyomlt21.htm

History of Wyoming
Charles Miner
1845

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#5 Dec-13-2006 06:01:am

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
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Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Thanks Tree Hugger,
I did read this site again and there was a lot happening in that area. Whatever the persecutions were at that time they were enough to make some leave everything behind and flee to Canada.
I believe the agreements for my ancestors to settle there came from New Jersey and not Conneticut or Philadelphia.Taking me a while to sought out the geography but I will get there.
Thanks again.
oldsalty

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#6 Dec-13-2006 02:26:pm

ADaylate
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Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Old Salty gave a quick look at some of my genealogy-I have Roys married into my Thibodeaus in NS and Hins/Hains married into my Bessettes(not Sally a Margaret)-just thought I'd let you know we are probably related lol

 

#7 Dec-13-2006 02:30:pm

tree hugger
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Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Old Salty gave a quick look at some of my genealogy-I have Roys married into my Thibodeaus in NS and Hins/Hains married into my Bessettes(not Sally a Margaret)-just thought I'd let you know we are probably related lol

Well isn't that neat!

sidenote: I've run across quite a few times where Sally actually wasn't the given name. Not sure why. In fact old friends given "christian" name is Sarah but she's always been Sally since birth.  :?

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#8 Dec-13-2006 03:44:pm

ADaylate
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Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Old Salty wrote:"My first French Ancestor was in Canada and US possibly around the mid to late 1500s with the name Roy".
     Did they come over with Champlain? One of my branches goes back to Helen Desportes first french woman born in Canada-just curious.

 

#9 Dec-13-2006 04:02:pm

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
Registered: Dec-01-2006
Posts: 901

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Old Salty gave a quick look at some of my genealogy-I have Roys married into my Thibodeaus in NS and Hins/Hains married into my Bessettes(not Sally a Margaret)-just thought I'd let you know we are probably related lol

A Daylate have we spoken on this before? Stage names are kinda confusing.
It seems that Detroit area was a hot spot for refugees and allies to gather after the revolution and marriages subsequently took place with some from the east. My French ancestors from Detroit were made officers in the British Indian Department and I would suspect this is where new relationships began.I should point out that Matthew Dolsen did not become a British subject until 1795 despite the fact that his grandfather was the first male born in New York after the English took over in 1665.
I also have a Rebecca Hains(also spelt Haines) B.New Jersey around 1724.
She was the second wife of George Field UEL who rode Express for Amos Ogden at the time of Wyoming. Family history says she was part French and part English. She was the stepmother of Hannah Field the wife of Matthew Dolsen. No one has yet found who Hannah's mother or grandmother were.
It seems more than coincidence that Matthew and Hannah lived and traded alongside Sally Hains although it is said she gave some land to her Loyalist friends.
oldsalty

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#10 Dec-13-2006 05:50:pm

ADaylate
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Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Old Salty gave a quick look at some of my genealogy-I have Roys married into my Thibodeaus in NS and Hins/Hains married into my Bessettes(not Sally a Margaret)-just thought I'd let you know we are probably related lol

A Daylate have we spoken on this before? Stage names are kinda confusing.
It seems that Detroit area was a hot spot for refugees and allies to gather after the revolution and marriages subsequently took place with some from the east. My French ancestors from Detroit were made officers in the British Indian Department and I would suspect this is where new relationships began.I should point out that Matthew Dolsen did not become a British subject until 1795 despite the fact that his grandfather was the first male born in New York after the English took over in 1665.
I also have a Rebecca Hains(also spelt Haines) B.New Jersey around 1724.
She was the second wife of George Field UEL who rode Express for Amos Ogden at the time of Wyoming. Family history says she was part French and part English. She was the stepmother of Hannah Field the wife of Matthew Dolsen. No one has yet found who Hannah's mother or grandmother were.
It seems more than coincidence that Matthew and Hannah lived and traded alongside Sally Hains although it is said she gave some land to her Loyalist friends.
oldsalty

Yes, I saw your descendency before on another board, which I no longer post on and my email was deleted when membership was-your ancestors that came in the late 1500's were of interest to me-when I looked before I was looking at another line of descendency-I have 85 typewritten pages so it's a little hard to memorize where and who(thats only part of the family)and many ended up in Detroit-just thought I 'd ask-my Desportes was Champlains wifes god child and it seems the early arrival of the French immigrants families intermarried. I share common ancestors with Willow, Bev(by marriage) and Cheri-going back that far you end up related to most that first came to the area.

 

#11 Dec-14-2006 01:08:am

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
Registered: Dec-01-2006
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Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Old Salty wrote:"My first French Ancestor was in Canada and US possibly around the mid to late 1500s with the name Roy".
     Did they come over with Champlain? One of my branches goes back to Helen Desportes first french woman born in Canada-just curious.

I am not sure whether anyone came with Champlain.The Dagneau Dequindre line is the one closest to me and is probably summed up best in the following  piece of information.
Louis-Cesaire Dagneau, sieur de Quindre: (1704 - 1767)
     He was the son of Michel Dagneaux, sieur de Quindre / Douville & Marie Lamy dit Defond, born in Sorel, Richelieu, Quebec. Louis was married to Marie-Anne Picoté de Belestre (1714-1756) (daughter of Francois-Marie Picoté & Marie-Catherine Trottier de Beaubien) at Montreal in 1736 and their children were: Marie-Anne-Archange (b.1739) (m.Francois Maurin in 1758), Pierre-Louis (1740-1784), Jean Bte. (1741-aft.1782), Antoine-Cesaire (1742-1784),  Marie-Catherine (1742-1826), Jean Bte-Michel (1744-aft.1782), Charles-Stanislas-Fontenay (1746-aft.1823) (m. Marie-Catherine Chene dit Labutte), Francois-Guillaume-Picanier (1747-1823), Marie-Louise (b.1749) & Antoine-Pontchartrain (1751-1814) (m.Catherine Desrivieres Lamorandiere-Trottier in 1779).
     Louis was hiring men from 1735 to 1741 primarily for Michilimackinac & Michipicoton in the fur trade. In 1741 Louis took his wife to the Post of the River St.Joseph, where her brother (Francois Picoté de Belestre) was. About 1742 he began trading near Fort St.Joseph, later in 1745 in partnership with Claude Marin de la Perriere, there. His headquarters remained at Ft.St.Joseph until 1747 when the business was moved to Michilimackinac and again in 1749 he moved to Detroit where he supplied the garrison there. In 1759 he lead a militia from Detroit (with his brother Major Guillaume Dagneau & Francois Marie Le Marchand de Lignery) in an attempt to releive Fort Niagara under attack by British and Native allies. Both Dagneau's were captured by the British.

Charles Stanislaurus Dagneau DeQuindre dit Fontenay married Marie-Catherine Chene dit Labutte who were the parents of my GGGgrandmother Pelagia deQuindre. I believe Pelagias mothers line extends back to Pierre Roy.
Pelagia married Isaac Matthew Dolsen and their son Jacob came to Australia around 1852.We will never know whether he planned on going home as he passed away at 40 years of age in Australia.His father made provision for him in his will provided he returned within 10 years of his death however he died only a few short years after his father.
Luckily for us he planted his seeds here in Australia and doing this research is like returning home.
oldsalty

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#12 Aug-19-2007 01:00:pm

chiefptm@aol.com
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Registered: Jul-23-2007
Posts: 3

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

he old salty I was reading your post,some of my ancestors came from Amsterdam on the half moon
with Hudson for the Dutch west Indie Trading co,in 1609 Jan Dewitt was the first,they arrived in kingston,
made there way to Esop=katskills,and married into local tribe of Lenape,they settled Bushwick,moved to
a Penn.Muddy river,to minisink,port jervis,to chite wink =today philpsberg and HarmonyN.J. our Barnett
Dewitt married Sara Vantassel,who was chief Wyandauch"s grand daughter,of the Montauk of long island.
Lucy Dewitt was my grand mother she married Robert E.H.Gehring,his mother was Betsey Conklin, esop
lenape.Lucys family were chie wink lenape(n.j.) our lines are Vantassel ,Cuddleback,fowler,occom,
pharaoh ,Rosencrantz,lott. Iam still working on the lines and have traced them back to france,holland and
found that the early ancestors were Hugonauts who were cast out of france. and went to Norway to
Americia.

                                                all the best chiefptm descendant (chitw wink Lenape)

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#13 Aug-19-2007 06:43:pm

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
Registered: Dec-01-2006
Posts: 901

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

chiefptm@aol.com wrote:

he old salty I was reading your post,some of my ancestors came from Amsterdam on the half moon
with Hudson for the Dutch west Indie Trading co,in 1609 Jan Dewitt was the first,they arrived in kingston,
made there way to Esop=katskills,and married into local tribe of Lenape,they settled Bushwick,moved to
a Penn.Muddy river,to minisink,port jervis,to chite wink =today philpsberg and HarmonyN.J. our Barnett
Dewitt married Sara Vantassel,who was chief Wyandauch"s grand daughter,of the Montauk of long island.
Lucy Dewitt was my grand mother she married Robert E.H.Gehring,his mother was Betsey Conklin, esop
lenape.Lucys family were chie wink lenape(n.j.) our lines are Vantassel ,Cuddleback,fowler,occom,
pharaoh ,Rosencrantz,lott. Iam still working on the lines and have traced them back to france,holland and
found that the early ancestors were Hugonauts who were cast out of france. and went to Norway to
Americia.

                                                all the best chiefptm descendant (chitw wink Lenape)

He chiefptm,there are some very familiar names amongst those above and I wondered if Robert EH Gehring is related to Charles Gehring of the New Netherlands project.
Conklin is another name I looked at at one stage but a distant connection.
No one has ever been able to find the ship my ancestor came on which has made it frustrating and has led to a lot of speculation. Also the fact that he was called Jan DeVries in some writings has not helped .Marriages in the first three generations were to women who also were of Walloon descendancy from the Belgium area. Cray,Vermillyea and Buys. Field was the next surname with ancestry back to 1636 Providence Rhode Island. Wow how'd I end up in Australia.
In 1784 when Zeisburger arrived at Detroit Matthew Dolsen loaned the Moravians money to buy flour with.
From "Wilderness Christians" by Gray, Zeisburger's words were "There are, we know, many wealthier gentlemen in this place than you are, who could help us if they would, but perhaps they are not so worthy of doing it. We ask that favour of you."
For some reason I suspect Matthew may have met the missionaries as a child in the Dutchess County area around the 1740's.
There is a trading book of Matthews in a museum in Canada and a researcher who saw the diary said his handwriting was beautifull.
Old Salty

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#14 Aug-20-2007 03:38:am

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
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Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

chiefptm,
I should have added that your ancestry would be great to hear more about. Did Jan Dewitt stay in 1609 or return later?
I read a little abut Steven(Talkhouse)Pharaoh and realised he was on the cover of a recently published book. Can you suggest some more accurate reading on this part of Dutch and Lenape History?There seems to be little written about early relationships other than wars.
Did your ancestors stay in New York,New Jersey,Pennsylvania areas or some move on North or West?
Old Salty

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#15 Aug-20-2007 09:17:am

chiefptm@aol.com
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Registered: Jul-23-2007
Posts: 3

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

He old salty ,my family stayed in New York,New Jersey,and Penn.My g grand father John Dewitt
caused a ruckuss in congress in  NY,Boston, and Pa.one of my other Dewitt ancestors was simeon Dewitt
who replaced Robert Erskine as map maker for Washington,some of the Dewitt women married into the
Clinton family=Dewitt Clinton was Mary Dewitts son.our conklin line moved all over the country,some
of the old family tails said one was a priate,jacob,I have not confirmed that.I was told they founded
Bushwick and moved up state to a nother local called calicoon,ny.
My mother told me a story when I was A kid about Barnett Dewitt,she said his wife was the grand daughter
of some one of royal indian blood.I was told my a friend that is a nanticoke lenape that was white mans
b.s.   I was told that Wyandauch was of royal blood and refered to Nanapashemet-or the new Moon, I was
told that uncas was the one who gave out that information,still working on confirming that.
I just got a list of ancestors who are buried at the Trinity church in New York city,Conklins and will be
connecting the dots. The Gehring connection I am not sure of ,other than the name at this point.
My sister in florida is working on that line and has been at it for some time.
as I uncover my family history I keep you up dated.Talkhouse pharaoh ,was a mohegan,not a lenape
it was his half brother they claim was a king of the tribe,again some think is b.s, His family how ever
does not , they have filed a law suite to regain the hamptons(good luck).
talk to you soon  chiefptm descendant chite wink lenape

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#16 Aug-21-2007 05:42:am

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
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Posts: 901

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

A few notes on my ancestor Matthew Dolsen. I think the General Clinton referred to may be the uncle of Dewitt Clinton and not sure whether he was captured before meeting him. Some of the Dolsons appear to have fought under Johnson during the French Indian Wars which would possibly explain their loyalty to Johnson and the British.
Old Salty
Mar 1777 Petitioner for a Road from the foot of the blue Mountain on the
North side thereof to Wioming.  Susquehannah Company Papers, Vol. IV p 339

1778  On List of Those who joined the Savages at Wyoming under the Comd. of Butler and Johnston.  Penna. Archives, 6th Series, Vol. XIII, p. 554

He was harassed and imprisoned in Northumberland jail on account of his loyalty to the British.  He fled to (New) York to join General Clinton, and was taken and imprisoned and his brother Peter was killed by his side.  He was found guilty of robbery and murder and sentenced to be hanged on Friday the 22nd day of January 1779 along with Amy Augar (or Jones), John Ryan, Thomas Delamer, James Gordon and Claudius Smith.  The last three were hanged.  He made his escape after being long confined, and came to Niagara where he joined Butlers' Rangers and served as a private.  He was in Detroit as early as May 1781, when he bought a lot in the fort from Gregor McGregor, adjoining that of Sarah Ainse, where he ran a tavern and carried on as a merchant and trader.  He also purchased a farm at Petite Cote, near that of his father.  By 1789 he ran a trading post on the Thames, just west of Thomas Clark's farm in Dover, where he eventually came to live.  In 1793 he physically removed an aggressive Indian from his tavern.  He is listed on the 1796 UE roll for the Western District, River Thames 1st township.  Received Dover lot as Crown Grant 6 Mar 1798.

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#17 Aug-26-2007 10:47:am

chiefptm@aol.com
Member
Registered: Jul-23-2007
Posts: 3

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

he old salty ,I was going over some ancestors history,my great grand mother was betsey conklin
and it said she was from the town of ramapo in the 1700s,minisink lenape,I also seen information
on the Devries family they also were in the ramapo mountains,and I saw the story about Smith.
and the Clinton family that your family served with were my ancestors.

I live on the other side of the mountain in Bloomingdale,n.j. the town was founded bymenonites
and the house I own was built by the Denike family and I bought the home from the VanBlarcome family

its still a small country town,8,000 people , I lived here for 30+ years,and retired here.


              all the best chiefptm descendant minsi minisink (chite Wink)

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#18 Mar-16-2008 05:44:am

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
Registered: Dec-01-2006
Posts: 901

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

chiefptm@aol.com wrote:

he old salty ,I was going over some ancestors history,my great grand mother was betsey conklin
and it said she was from the town of ramapo in the 1700s,minisink lenape,I also seen information
on the Devries family they also were in the ramapo mountains,and I saw the story about Smith.
and the Clinton family that your family served with were my ancestors.

I live on the other side of the mountain in Bloomingdale,n.j. the town was founded bymenonites
and the house I own was built by the Denike family and I bought the home from the VanBlarcome family

its still a small country town,8,000 people , I lived here for 30+ years,and retired here.


              all the best chiefptm descendant minsi minisink (chite Wink)

He chiefptm Im sorry I missed this post and did not reply. There has been a lot of debate surrounding the DeVries and De Vries van Dalsen names but the latest analysis leads us to believe they were different families. There is an author named Tom Oosterihus from Netherlands who last year was writing a book on Jan DeVries the captain who came from Brazil and whos descendants are Ramapo. Jan De Vries above is the one who perished with Kieft on the voyage back to Netherlands.
Old Salty

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#19 Oct-28-2008 05:55:pm

theCHEROKEErose
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Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

mark/old salty...just interested in the 'dutch' connection...i have a great grandmother whose name was ariontyea van winkle...from what i can tell, she was born/lived/passed in new york state..she was married to my great grandfather, jedediah 'jorsey' dean...anyone out there know of any eastern native connection to the van winkles..would REALLY help my genealogy tracking...wa do

Last edited by theCHEROKEErose (Oct-28-2008 05:57:pm)

 

#20 Oct-28-2008 06:35:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11032

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Have you checked Eric Jensen's names database?

I can't seem to find the link right now, let me look.

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#21 Apr-23-2009 07:50:pm

Chevy
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Registered: Aug-01-2007
Posts: 1577

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

I have Dutch ancestry, Snedegar. I know Jan Snedegar was in New Amsterdam, but I really don't know anything much about the Snedegars.

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#22 May-31-2009 05:54:pm

oldsalty
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From: Long way from the Northern Hem
Registered: Dec-01-2006
Posts: 901

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Chevy wrote:

I have Dutch ancestry, Snedegar. I know Jan Snedegar was in New Amsterdam, but I really don't know anything much about the Snedegars.

Jan Snedigar is mentioned briefly as a Tavernkeeper on page 141 of the "Island at the Centre of the World"by Russell Shorto.

It is interesting to look into these ancestors and their lives pre New Amsterdam.Many were religeous refugees from Belgium and France and quite often appear to have some family links.
What I am interested in is the relationships between many of these people and the Native People of Manhattan and surrounding areas.I had an ancestor named Cray whos son was randsomed by the Turks who I believe may be the Nanticoke.
There are many questions about these relationships and dont know if anyone has written academically on the topic.There are very brief snippits I have seen and hopefully more will be discovered in The New Netherlands papers.
Old Salty

Last edited by oldsalty (May-31-2009 06:12:pm)

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#23 May-31-2009 11:16:pm

Chevy
Member
Registered: Aug-01-2007
Posts: 1577

Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

Thanks, Old Salty. Snedegar was my Grandmother's maiden name. A taveren keeper. Oh my relatives will love that. big_smile lol I think one of my cousins is researching that. That's my Mother's side of the family. wink I'm looking for the other side. They liked a wee dram. smile

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#24 Aug-02-2009 04:06:pm

ramapoughnative
Member
Registered: Sep-10-2007
Posts: 187
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Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

he' all.. another monkeywrench to add to the mix for those from the NY, NJ, Conn area.

"There was a superstitious reluctance among them to have their names uttered aloud and they were usually spoken of by indirection This is one reason why they preferred in their intercourse with the whites to use a name given by the latter. "

"The Indians of New Jersey",  By William Nelson,  pg. 41

In otherwords, some of the last names Van Dunk, De fries, Conklin, etc. may not be by heritage but rather by convenience. Now we know this is true to some extent but makes tracing our roots almost impossible without document. I'm sure this was the case in other places too.


Everything I do is for my grandmother for without her, I wouldn't be here today.

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#25 Aug-02-2009 05:33:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4274
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Re: Dutch in New Amsterdam

ramapoughnative wrote:

he' all.. another monkeywrench to add to the mix for those from the NY, NJ, Conn area.

"There was a superstitious reluctance among them to have their names uttered aloud and they were usually spoken of by indirection This is one reason why they preferred in their intercourse with the whites to use a name given by the latter. "

"The Indians of New Jersey",  By William Nelson,  pg. 41

In otherwords, some of the last names Van Dunk, De fries, Conklin, etc. may not be by heritage but rather by convenience. Now we know this is true to some extent but makes tracing our roots almost impossible without document. I'm sure this was the case in other places too.

The question of heritage versus convenience (as well as other questions) can be easily answered by simple Y-chromosome DNA tests.

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