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#1 Feb-11-2019 09:06:am

Kavik
Visitor
Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

"Female Version" Terms

Hello,

I don't know if in traditional Lenape culture a woman could be a chief, or if there were 'medicine women' at all.

If so, what would be the proper term (NU) for a female chief and medicine woman?? With chief, could you just tack on -kwe, at the end? Not sure that there even exist words for a female chief or medicine woman in Lenape. 

Thanks for any insight!

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#2 Feb-11-2019 03:51:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4439

Re: "Female Version" Terms

Traditionally, men were chiefs among the Lenape.  However, sakimechque was used for "chief woman" and "queen" in Biblical passages of the Moravians.

There were definitely "medicine women," traditionally.  metewi ochque or metewechque would be "medicine woman" (literally, "shaman woman") in NU.

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#3 Feb-11-2019 04:54:pm

Kavik
Visitor
Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: "Female Version" Terms

Thanks very much for the insight!

Never thought of the Moravian Bible translations for "queen" - (female chief).

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#4 Feb-12-2019 08:10:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4439

Re: "Female Version" Terms

See the parenthetical comment I added to my last post on this subject, above.

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#5 Feb-12-2019 09:10:am

Kavik
Visitor
Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: "Female Version" Terms

Thanks.

Can I take the 'ch' in the forms above as the way to show pre-aspirition? So if using SU spelling the form would be '-hkwe', or is the 'ch' something else?

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#6 Feb-12-2019 09:11:am

Kavik
Visitor
Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: "Female Version" Terms

Actually, if both forms were written using SU spelling, what might they be?

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#7 Feb-12-2019 11:32:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4439

Re: "Female Version" Terms

Actually, both words do occur in SU:  sakimaxkwe ('woman chief') and metexkwe ('woman sweat doctor').  The latter term has taken on a specialized meaning, though it encompassed a wider range of meaning, originally.  That is:  Any kind of 'shaman woman.'

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#8 Feb-13-2019 03:01:pm

Kavik
Visitor
Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: "Female Version" Terms

Awesome - thanks!

I should have checked the Talking Dictionary site to see if those two were in there.

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#9 May-22-2019 04:25:pm

Kavik
Visitor
Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: "Female Version" Terms

A few additional forms -

Although I doubt very much female guards and guides existed in Native culture, I would imagine it's still possible to construct the female equivalents of:

Kichkinet

Nutiket

I suspect there's a -chque- in these somewhere, but not sure where it would go. After or before the -et endings?

Since Kichkinet is something like "one who understands the marks", not sure if the form is by itself 'genderless'

Thanks for any insight.

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#10 May-22-2019 05:22:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4439

Re: "Female Version" Terms

Both forms can be used for a male or a female.  Their "gender" in animate.  They are both participles.  The female final, -chque, occurs only on nouns.

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#11 May-23-2019 02:24:pm

Kavik
Visitor
Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: "Female Version" Terms

Ah, okay - thanks for the insight on -chque!

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#12 Sep-22-2019 10:23:am

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 980

Re: "Female Version" Terms

Sschkaak, You are doing an awesome job of helping to make the OA more authentic. Lol


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#13 Sep-22-2019 12:08:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4439

Re: "Female Version" Terms

I hope so.  Anything to correct those misusing the Lenape language.  I've done the same for Treebeard, Messochwen Teme, Evan Pritchard, the LNP, and others.  At least, the OA members usually listen to me.

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#14 Sep-22-2019 07:23:pm

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 980

Re: "Female Version" Terms

All true. I remember a few of those. To his credit, this fellow is definitely putting in the time!


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#15 Sep-23-2019 11:38:am

Kavik
Visitor
Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: "Female Version" Terms

Thanks - yes - as a linguist, I have to just cringe and bite my tongue when I hear some f=of the renditions smile

Hopefully at the very least those in the OA who are more diligent will realize that there is an actual correct way to say these things!

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#16 Sep-23-2019 03:44:pm

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 980

Re: "Female Version" Terms

And more power to you for your efforts. I’ve come a long way since my OA days, but I have come to recognize how bad their Unami was. And the costuming. Pan-Indian at best.


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#17 Sep-23-2019 04:13:pm

Kavik
Visitor
Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: "Female Version" Terms

Yes, some Lodges do not exactly do 'regalia' any justice (to put it nicely). There are some, however, that put a great deal of effort into researching historical documents and learning from those who still have knowledge of the craft of making traditional regalia, to get it right.

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