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#26 Jul-01-2016 04:28:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Is there a 'w' after the 'k' in militant?

No.  That would be Munsee.

(I'm sure you meant miliyenk, not militant.)

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#27 Jul-01-2016 04:49:pm

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Ah, okay. Must have been another word I was thinking of.

Yes - hazards of typing on a mobile device instead of my work pc:D

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#28 Jul-01-2016 05:46:pm

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

So I think for the very first sentence: "For night alone that rests our thoughts", I'm going to need to paraphrase it something like:

(For the) nights (when) we are alone, when our thoughts are peaceful/quiet.

Not sure in Lenape I would really need the initial "for".

That may work; it's just a matter of getting all the words smile

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#29 Jul-05-2016 08:39:am

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

OK - I suspect this is going to need to soem help, but.....

What I'm going for ehre is "at night when we are alone, because our thoughts (they) are quiet/peaceful"

tpuwik ènta *nxuhàhëmo, èli mpënaelìntàmëwakànëna ehikwësuwak/wëlànkuntëwi.


Not sure about the form nxuhahemo (pure guess) and I think after 'eli' I need to have a conjunct (?). I suspect that ehikwesuwak may refer to an animate subject, not inanaimate - welankuntewi will work equally as well, but not sure is stylistically it should come after 'eli'.

Help is much appreciated! It's amazing how something that sounds so simple can present all sorts of issues neutral

Thanks!

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#30 Jul-05-2016 10:18:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

"at night when we are alone" = tpukwik enta naxuhaniyenk

"because our thoughts are quiet/peaceful" - eli mpenaelintamewakanenana chitkwek

Both eli and enta are preverbs which trigger verbs in the conjunct order.  You put the 2nd person plural suffix (-hemo) on "we are alone," but it had to be a conjunct order verb, anyway.  Is ehikwesuwak supposed to be chitkwesuwak?  In any case, it shows an animate subject, so, as you observe, it's unacceptable.  welankuntewi is a prenoun, so also unacceptable.  I added the plural suffix for "thoughts," but that's probably optional these days; so, take it or leave it.

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#31 Jul-05-2016 11:46:am

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Thanks, Sschkaak,

So, 'naxuhaniyenk' is the conjunct form (because of the enta), correct ?

Yes - typo on chitkwesuwak, but wrong form anyway.

Ah, yeah, I forgot to add the plural ending for 'our thoughts'.

Chitkwek would be the form for an inanimate 'they' - is that correct? From chitkwe 'it is quiet' - with the  '-k' indicating plural (?), i.e. 'they are x'  instead of 'it is x' ?   

Again, thanks very much!

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#32 Jul-05-2016 12:35:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Kavik wrote:

Thanks, Sschkaak,

You're welcome.

So, 'naxuhaniyenk' is the conjunct form (because of the enta), correct ?

Yes.

Yes - typo on chitkwesuwak, but wrong form anyway.

Okay.  I wondered.

Ah, yeah, I forgot to add the plural ending for 'our thoughts'.

It's probably not absolutely necessary, today, but I prefer it.

Chitkwek would be the form for an inanimate 'they' - is that correct? From chitkwe 'it is quiet' - with the  '-k' indicating plural (?), i.e. 'they are x'  instead of 'it is x' ?

Not exactly.  chitkwek is the conjunct form of chitkwe and is used for either singular or plural subject--in this case, plural.

Again, thanks very much!

Again, you're very welcome.

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#33 Jul-05-2016 12:58:pm

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Thanks for the clarification!

I hasitiate to ask, but...other than the obvious difference in orthography, would the NU verision by any different (I guess I'm thinking more grammar-wise). I know there's probably a few chnages in words as well (i.e. SU 'o' for NU 'u').

If there's not much in the grammar, I think I can get all the correct forms from an on-line NU dictionary.

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#34 Jul-05-2016 01:06:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Write out the whole grace, here, and I'll see if there are any words I don't recognize in NU.  It's a pain going back through all these posts.

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#35 Jul-05-2016 02:22:pm

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

OK - so here it is as I have it:

Tputkwik enta naxuhaniyenk, eli mpenaelintamewakanenana chitkwek,
Enta petapanke ok chitkwe, ntemakanemena kishahte,
Tentay lokwenewi, kishewe ok nulhatenamihena,
Nmichewakanena eli wichemukwenk nmikemusewakanenanink.
Eli yuli miliyenk, kenamewakehena, Ketanetuwit.

Quick question - on the 'naxuhaniyenk' and 'miliyenk', are those long or short 'e'? (e or è).

Thanks!

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#36 Jul-05-2016 03:01:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Cognates of all those words occur in NU, except for lokwenewi ("in the evening"), which is wulakuniwi in NU, and kenamewakehena, which is genamehena in NU. 

Tputkwik should be Tpukwik.  I would drop the possessive marker, -em-, from ntemakanemena. 

The e in naxuhaniyenk and miliyenk is short = è.

Note:  Although all these words (minus the two exceptions) occur in NU, I'm not certain that they are all found in the Brinton & Anthony dictionary.  The vast majority should be, but I haven't checked.

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#37 Jul-05-2016 03:06:pm

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Thanks for the corrections -  and the specific NU forms.

Yeah, it was Brinton's I was thinking of - I'll take a look and see what I can find and then post the results - I may be able to find the words buit I'm probably going to be guessing on teh spelling of some of the grammatical endings for NU (particularly those that have the 'schwa' (ë).

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#38 Jul-05-2016 03:15:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Okay.  We'll see what you come up with.

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#39 Jul-06-2016 08:57:am

Kavik
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Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Ok - here's what I came up with (not a great attempt) given the restrictions of Brinton's dictionary - a few words I simply could not find.

Tpoquik enda nachohaneunk (?), eli nlitchewaganennanall (?)  tschitquik,

Enda petapan(qui ?)  woak tschitqui, ndan(ey)enna ---kishahte (SU),

Tindey wulakuniwi, kschitten (?)   woak ----nulhatenamihena (SU),

Nmlizewenna (?)   eli witschemoquenk (?)    ndallo'gewaganennank,

Eli julik milijenk (?),   genamehena, Manitto.


I'm sure there are a ton of errors in here - some of the fiorms (and their spellings) I guessed at.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

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#40 Jul-06-2016 09:25:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Here's the comparison I drew up using my Mission Delaware sources:

Tpukwik enta naxuhaniyenk, eli mpenaelintamewakanenana chitkwek,
Tpoquik enda nachohannijenk, eli mbenauwelendamoaganenanall tschitquek,

Enta petapanke ok chitkwe, ntemakanemena kishahte,
Enda petapanke woak tschitqueu, ndomaganena gischachteu,

Tentay lokwenewi, kishewe ok nulhatenamihena,
Tendey wulakuniwi, gischuweu woak nolhatenamihenna,

Nmichewakanena eli wichemukwenk nmikemusewakanenanink.
Nmizewoaganena eli witschemukquenk nmikemossowoaganenanink.

Eli yuli miliyenk, kenamewakehena, Ketanetuwit.
Eli jul milijenk, genamehena, Getanittowit.

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#41 Jul-06-2016 09:33:am

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Fantasitic - so much better - I kind of thought some of the owrds should sound/look more like the SU forms, but just could not find them in Brinton.

Is it safe to assume that the vowels as far as long/short go, would be the same in NU as in SU?


Is there a more comprehensive dictionary for NU othert han Brinton? i.e. one dictionary as opposed to several sources? Perhaps not; I think the only one I've seen is Brinton's. 

Thanks very much!

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#42 Jul-06-2016 09:43:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Kavik wrote:

Is it safe to assume that the vowels as far as long/short go, would be the same in NU as in SU?

Not always, but as a general rule, yes.   

Is there a more comprehensive dictionary for NU othert han Brinton? i.e. one dictionary as opposed to several sources? Perhaps not; I think the only one I've seen is Brinton's.

Scroll down to A Delaware-English Lexicon of Words and Phrases, here:  https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i … Caps%2C141  This has over 6,000 entries.

Thanks very much!

Yuh!
Juch!

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#43 Jul-06-2016 09:46:am

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Cool - Thanks!

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