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#1 Jun-30-2016 10:01:am

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Hello,

I am trying to translate a short "grace" into S. Unami (I'll try NU later once I have the SU) and was hoping to get a bit of insight on how to word the translation.

Being a "grace", the language is somewhat poetic which makes it more difficult.

Here's the English:

For night alone that rests our thoughts
For quiet dawn that lights our trail
For evening fire that warms and cheers
For each repast that fuels our work

I'm thinking of structuring the lines something along the lines of:

For night alone (?), that (it)rests(them) our thoughts.

Same for second line.

Third line: for evening fire, that (it)warms(us) and (it)cheers(us)

Last line; for each meal, that (it)helps(it) our work

Would that be a reasonable way to try and structure the sentences in Lenape?

I think for the initial "for", I could use "eli" and for the "that", perhaps "tili" - ?

I'm not quite sure how to structure "night alone, quiet dawn, evening fire" - not sure if that would end up being one word or two for each one, or if I might need a verb form of some type.

One I know the above, I'd like to try and work through the translation on my own and post it for corrections/suggestions.

Thanks very much!

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#2 Jun-30-2016 12:50:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

I've deleted my first post, in order to better re-phrase it.  Lenape has no verbs wherein both subject and object are inanimate.  There are three ways around this.  Your prayer anthropomorphizes or deifies inanimate things, such as night, dawn, fire and repast.  It is possible, if inanimate things are thought of as performing animate activities, that they can be treated as animates, and verbs with animate subjects can be used to describe what they are doing.  Another way (probably better) is to substitute animate nouns for these "animated inanimate words."  You could use "stars," instead of night; "the Sun," instead of dawn, and so forth.  A third way would be to word the whole text a different way--though, I haven't thought about what that might be.

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#3 Jun-30-2016 01:01:pm

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Ah, okay - I hadn't thought of that (i.e. no verbs taking inan sub. and obj.) -

The grace is, in part, symbolic as it refers back to part of an (Scout) induction ceremony so to change the inanimate words to animate ones (i.e. starts for night), probably would not work.

I suspect if I want to try translating it, I would need to more or less re-word the while thing. It would make it a little circumlocutive in a way, but may convey the idea/symbolism better.

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#4 Jun-30-2016 01:12:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Best of luck!  Let us know what you come up with.

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#5 Jun-30-2016 01:47:pm

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Yeah, I'll definately run it by - not to mention, I'm sure I'll have some grammatical questions along the way!

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#6 Jul-01-2016 09:17:am

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Well, this is proving a bit more difficultt han I was hoping...

Here's a stab at the second line which, in the original is "For quiet dawn that lights our trail"

My working rewrite for translation is something like: "when dawn approaches and it s quiet, for our trail (it) is illuminated.

So: Enta petapanke ok chitkwe, tili ktemakanemena kishahte

Not sure about the word order here - kishahte before ktemakanemena maybe?

Would the above work, or still not quite right?
   
Thanks!

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#7 Jul-01-2016 09:47:am

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Here's a stab at the third line: "For evening fire that warms and cheers".

Eli tentay lokwenewi, tili kishewe ok kulhatenamihena.

Something like  - For (a/the) fire in the evening, that it is warm and we are happy/in good spirits

Not sure is I can say something like "*kchinktehwehena" with a meaning of 'we enjoy the warmth of the fire'??

Again, any suggestions greatly appreciated!

Thanks

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#8 Jul-01-2016 09:55:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Kavik wrote:

Well, this is proving a bit more difficultt han I was hoping...

Here's a stab at the second line which, in the original is "For quiet dawn that lights our trail"

My working rewrite for translation is something like: "when dawn approaches and it s quiet, for our trail (it) is illuminated.

So: Enta petapanke ok chitkwe, tili ktemakanemena kishahte

Not sure about the word order here - kishahte before ktemakanemena maybe?

Would the above work, or still not quite right?
   
Thanks!

It seems to me that the four lines you've given us must be part of a longer prayer.  tili does not mean "for."  It's important to know which meaning of "for" you want to use, here.  I suspect it's number 2, below; but, it would help if you let me know, for sure.


in support of or in favor of (a person or policy):

"they voted for independence in a referendum"


2.affecting, with regard to, or in respect of (someone or something):

"she is responsible for the efficient running of their department" 

[more]

3.on behalf of or to the benefit of (someone or something):

"these parents aren't speaking for everyone"


4.having (the thing mentioned) as a purpose or function:

"she is searching for enlightenment" 

"the necessary tools for making a picture frame"

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#9 Jul-01-2016 09:58:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

For example:  What does "For quiet dawn" mean?  It can't be a conjunction:  "Because quiet dawn."  It has to be a preposition.

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#10 Jul-01-2016 10:13:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Kavik wrote:

Here's a stab at the third line: "For evening fire that warms and cheers".

Eli tentay lokwenewi, tili kishewe ok kulhatenamihena.

Something like  - For (a/the) fire in the evening, that it is warm and we are happy/in good spirits

Not sure is I can say something like "*kchinktehwehena" with a meaning of 'we enjoy the warmth of the fire'??

Again, any suggestions greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Eli ("for") is a conjunction.  This is what I'm talking about.  It means "for" in the sense of "because" or "as."  In Lenape linguistic terms, it's a preverb and must be used with a verb in the conjunct order.  If you are good with the paraphrasing you've chosen, then we should work on that instead of a more literal translation of the original.  But, we still need to know what phrases like "FOR fire" are meant to convey.  Are we being thankful "FOR fire," etc.?

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#11 Jul-01-2016 10:32:am

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Yes, sorry - the final line of the grace is "we give thanks....", so yes, we are thankful FOR 'x'.

So third line maybe paraphased as "for(because) of evening fire, because it is warm and we are in good spirits"

For the one previous - "when dawn approaches and it is quiet, because our trail is illuminated"


So... "(we are thankful) for evening fire, because ....."
"(we are thankful) when dawn approaches and it is quiet, because....."


Hope that makes more sense.  I just noticed too that I think I'm using the wrong "our" - should be exclusive not inclusive, so 'n' and not 'k'.

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#12 Jul-01-2016 10:37:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

That makes it easier, because you can leave out the "for" in front of every item and put it in the final verb:  "we give thanks for them," or "we thank you for them."

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#13 Jul-01-2016 11:07:am

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

OK, so, the initial "eli" that I have can be eliminated, correct?

What about the one towards the end, i.e. would the first example I have be something like:

Tentay lokwenewi, eli kishewe ok nulhatenamihena

or can I get rid of the 'eli' alltogether? BTW, is the final word okay (grammaticfally correct)?

The other phrase: Enta petapanke ok chitkwe, kishahte ntemakanemena - would that make sense or would I need an 'eli' after the comma?

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#14 Jul-01-2016 11:42:am

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Trying for the next line: "For each repast that fuels our work"

Paraphrased to "our food (because) it helps our work"

Nmichewakanemena (eli)        nmikemusewakanemena.

Not sure I can use a form of "wiche-" here (or even if so, what form that would be -look slike a simple it-helps-them can't be used as both subject and object are inanimate).

Maybe need to rethink how I paraphrasded it - maybe something like "(the) food you give us (because) our work it is better/we work better (withit) - kind of stuck on this one.

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#15 Jul-01-2016 12:08:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Kavik wrote:

OK, so, the initial "eli" that I have can be eliminated, correct?

Yes.

What about the one towards the end, i.e. would the first example I have be something like:

Tentay lokwenewi, eli kishewe ok nulhatenamihena

or can I get rid of the 'eli' alltogether?

You could get rid of it.  If you don't you'll have to make kishewe a conjunct verb:  kishewek.  Your choice.

BTW, is the final word okay (grammaticfally correct)?

Yes.

The other phrase: Enta petapanke ok chitkwe, kishahte ntemakanemena - would that make sense or would I need an 'eli' after the comma?

I think you could switch the last two words.  No need for "eli," but you could put it in front of kishahtek (conjunct form) if that's better for you.

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#16 Jul-01-2016 12:20:pm

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Thanks!! I think I'll just switch the two words rather than keep the 'eli'.

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#17 Jul-01-2016 12:22:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Kavik wrote:

Trying for the next line: "For each repast that fuels our work"

Paraphrased to "our food (because) it helps our work"

Nmichewakanemena (eli)        nmikemusewakanemena.

This is okay.  You just have to add nen wichemukwenk (it helps us - conjunct) after the eli.  Also, nouns ending in -akan almost never use the possessive marker, -em-.

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#18 Jul-01-2016 12:49:pm

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

OK - a few questions -

Nouns ending in -wakan...how would itbe done, just eliminate the -em-? So nmichewakanena eli wichemukwenk nmikemusewakanena ??

Is there wa way of indicating 'with' i.e. "it helps us with our work , or is it more or les understood because of the construction??

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#19 Jul-01-2016 01:16:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Kavik wrote:

OK - a few questions -

Nouns ending in -wakan...how would itbe done, just eliminate the -em-? So nmichewakanena eli wichemukwenk nmikemusewakanena ??

Yes.

Is there wa way of indicating 'with' i.e. "it helps us with our work , or is it more or les understood because of the construction??

Why not just say, eli wichemukwenk mikemusewakanink = "because it helps us in our work" ?

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#20 Jul-01-2016 02:22:pm

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Thanks - I was thinking of the locative here, but wasn't sure it could be used that way. 
Wouldn't the last word need to include the posessive? nmikemusenawakanenanink (?)

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#21 Jul-01-2016 02:24:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Yes.  I'm getting punch-drunk.  smile

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#22 Jul-01-2016 02:27:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

WAIT!  Too many syllables in that.  lol  Should be nmikemusewakanenanink.

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#23 Jul-01-2016 02:35:pm

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Whoops - yeah, I have an extra on ein there!

For the last section (I'll have to think of how to best rephrase the very first line) "we give thanks for these/this -

Kenamewakehena - we give thanks, but not sure how to get the "'for these/this" , or could I say something like "eli kemilihena yuli, kenamewakehena. "

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#24 Jul-01-2016 03:10:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4453

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

You could say that, but eli triggers a conjunct verb, so:  eli yuli miliyenk ("because these you give them to us").  This word order looks better, to me.  Not sure if it's absolutely necessary, but it just looks right, to me, based on my reading of NU texts.

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#25 Jul-01-2016 04:14:pm

Kavik
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Registered: Jul-15-2014
Posts: 131

Re: Help with Sentence Structuring for Translation

Thanks, I actually had that form in another translation I had done way back when.

Is there a 'w' after the 'k' in militant?

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