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#101 Aug-01-2014 08:07:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

brambles wrote:

tree hugger wrote:

We see from the passage below that Bob Ruth claims Indian ancestry in his paternal line. So either one or both of his paternal grandparents must be Indian. That should be easy enough to prove.


The Last Speakers: The Quest to Save the World's Most Endangered Languages
By K. David Harrison

http://books.google.com/books?id=EajTZx … mp;f=false

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e283/ … 980121.jpg

Hi, Everyone! I may be your newest newcomer, after two weeks or so of avid reading as a guest. By now I can recognize some distinctive voices among you regulars (grin).

As others here in the Delaware Valley may have already noticed, K. David Harrison is Associate Professor and Chair of Linguistics at Swarthmore College--which hosts Shelley DePaul's Lenape language classes. Harrison's wording suggests that his informant regarding Bob Red Hawk Ruth's secret was not Bob, but Shelley herself.

(Now here's hoping I formatted this reply correctly, bein' new and all . . . .)

Welcome, and thank you brambles!

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#102 Aug-01-2014 08:14:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

This still does not explain Bob's ancestry problems. While claiming Lenape lines from his paternal side, the census records and genealogy that is online is more than problematic. Of course, I'll be following up with documentation of that.

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#103 Aug-01-2014 08:47:pm

brambles
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Registered: Aug-01-2014
Posts: 6

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

tree hugger wrote:

This still does not explain Bob's ancestry problems. While claiming Lenape lines from his paternal side, the census records and genealogy that is online is more than problematic. Of course, I'll be following up with documentation of that.

Right. Now that I've figured out how to parse those fine photobucket images, it's easy to see that the 15-year-old Robert on line 79 of the 1940 census form could well be Robert Red Hawk Ruth's father. . . and if Bob is now 56 or so, he would have been born around 1958, when the Robert Ruth of the census page would have been about 33: a good age match.

That said, I can imagine that the Lenape Nation of PA would have no problem with seeing Bob's father and grandfather (if that's who they are) identified as "W" under "Color or Race"--because, after all, such families as theirs would still have been in the grip of the 3rd Crow.

And thanks for the warm welcome!

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#104 Aug-01-2014 10:51:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

brambles wrote:

tree hugger wrote:

This still does not explain Bob's ancestry problems. While claiming Lenape lines from his paternal side, the census records and genealogy that is online is more than problematic. Of course, I'll be following up with documentation of that.

Right. Now that I've figured out how to parse those fine photobucket images, it's easy to see that the 15-year-old Robert on line 79 of the 1940 census form could well be Robert Red Hawk Ruth's father. . . and if Bob is now 56 or so, he would have been born around 1958, when the Robert Ruth of the census page would have been about 33: a good age match.

That said, I can imagine that the Lenape Nation of PA would have no problem with seeing Bob's father and grandfather (if that's who they are) identified as "W" under "Color or Race"--because, after all, such families as theirs would still have been in the grip of the 3rd Crow.

And thanks for the warm welcome!

..and they shall see tomorrow.

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#105 Aug-01-2014 11:07:pm

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 975

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

brambles wrote:

That said, I can imagine that the Lenape Nation of PA would have no problem with seeing Bob's father and grandfather (if that's who they are) identified as "W" under "Color or Race"--because, after all, such families as theirs would still have been in the grip of the 3rd Crow.

Or even Jim Crow. We are all familiar with the rules of assimilation. But the line back to a documented Native would still be clear and undeniable. As nice as oral history may be, and even as much as Native cultures rely on it, genealogical documentation and DNA evidence are not impossible to attain and are the unimpeachable proof necessary to back up the lofty claims and ambitions of the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#106 Aug-02-2014 08:09:am

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4359

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

A few relevant quotes from Invisible Indians:  Native Americans in Pennsylvania, by Minderhout & Frantz:

"...the Lenape Nation requires convincing genealogical proof for membership." (p.133)

"They [the Lenape Nation] have written their own legislation which would restrict state recognition to those people with clear genealogical links to the Lenape."  (p.191)

"...the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania restricts its membership to those individuals who can lay claim to Lenape ancestry." (p.212)

Last edited by sschkaak (Aug-02-2014 08:09:am)

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#107 Aug-02-2014 12:54:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

As we can see in post #96 (and elsewhere on the internet) Bob Ruth states his Lenape ancestry is on his paternal side. From a public post, which I have a screenshot if needed, he states his paternal grandmother is Jeanne Ruth. From the below information, we can eliminate his direct grandmother as the sources of Lenape ancestry as she was born in France.

From the 1940 Census
http://www.archives.com/1940-census/jea … a-67611758

Paternal Grandparents:

Jeanne Ruth in the 1940 Census
First Name:    Jeanne
Last Name:    Ruth
Age at Time of Census:    49
Gender:    Female
Race:    White
Ethnicity:    American
Est. Birth Year:    1891
Birth Location:    France

Enumeration District:    46-229
Residence:    West Conshohocken Borough, Montgomery, PA Map
Relationship to Head of Household:    Wife
Other People in Household:   

William Ruth
71 yrs, Male
Louise Ruth
17 yrs, Female
Robert Ruth
15 yrs, Male
Thomas Ruth
14 yrs, Male
Doris Ruth
13 yrs, Female
Cathrine Ruth
10 yrs, Female
Elmira Sweazer
35 yrs, Female
William Sweazer
7 yrs, Male
Henrietta Lukens
31 yrs, Female
Elizabeth Lukens
13 yrs, Female
Marital Status:    Married
Language:    English
Genealogical Society Number:    005456718
NARA Publication Number:    T627
NARA Microfilm Roll Number:    3586
Line Number:    77
Sheet:    B
Sheet Number:    3
Collection:    1940 U.S. Federal Population Census

William Ruth in the 1940 Census
First Name:    William
Last Name:    Ruth
Age at Time of Census:    71
Gender:    Male
Race:    White
Ethnicity:    American
Est. Birth Year:    1869
Birth Location:    Pennsylvania
Enumeration District:    46-229
Residence:    West Conshohocken Borough, Montgomery, PA Map
Relationship to Head of Household:    Head
Other People in Household:   

Jeanne Ruth
49 yrs, Female
Louise Ruth
17 yrs, Female
Robert Ruth
15 yrs, Male
Thomas Ruth
14 yrs, Male
Doris Ruth
13 yrs, Female
Cathrine Ruth
10 yrs, Female
Elmira Sweazer
35 yrs, Female
William Sweazer
7 yrs, Male
Henrietta Lukens
31 yrs, Female
Elizabeth Lukens
13 yrs, Female
Marital Status:    Married
Language:    English
Genealogical Society Number:    005456718
NARA Publication Number:    T627
NARA Microfilm Roll Number:    3586
Line Number:    76
Sheet:    B
Sheet Number:    3
Collection:    1940 U.S. Federal Population Census

/pb.php?url=http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e283/woodlandindians/forum/census_zpsdb429862.jpg

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#108 Aug-02-2014 12:57:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Going back another Generation to William's parents from the 1880 Census:

Name:    Aron Ruth
Event Type:    Census
Event Year:    1880
Event Place:    Conshohocken, Montgomery, Pennsylvania, United States
Gender:    Male
Age:    60
Marital Status:    Married
Race:    White
Race (Original):    W
Occupation:    Laborer
Relationship to Head of Household:    Self
Relationship to Head of Household (Original):    Self
Birth Year (Estimated):    1820
Birthplace:    Pennsylvania, United States
Father's Birthplace:    Pennsylvania, United States
Mother's Birthplace:    Pennsylvania, United States
Affiliate Name:    The U.S. National Archives and Records Administration (NARA)
Affiliate Publication Number:    T9
Affiliate Film Number:    1159
Household    Role    Gender    Age    Birthplace
Aron Ruth    Self    M    60    Pennsylvania, United States
George Ruth    Son    M    19    Pennsylvania, United States
Fredrick Partenhimer    Son    M    4    Pennsylvania, United States
John Mc Guigan    Other    M    18    Pennsylvania, United States
William Ruth    Son    M    11    Pennsylvania, United States
Clara Partenhimer    Daughter    F    22    Pennsylvania, United States
Joseph Ruth    Son    M    16    Pennsylvania, United States
Catherine Ruth    Wife    F    52    Pennsylvania, United States District: 41 , Sheet Number and Letter: 339B , GS Film Number: 1255159 , Digital Folder Number: 004244443 , Image Number: 00416

Name:    Catherine Ruth
Event Type:    Census
Event Year:    1880
Event Place:    Conshohocken, Montgomery, Pennsylvania, United States
Gender:    Female
Age:    52
Marital Status:    Married
Race:    White
Race (Original):    W
Occupation:    Keeping House
Relationship to Head of Household:    Wife
Relationship to Head of Household (Original):    Wife
Birth Year (Estimated):    1828
Birthplace:    Pennsylvania, United States
Father's Birthplace:    Pennsylvania, United States
Mother's Birthplace:    Pennsylvania, United States
Affiliate Name:    The U.S. National Archives and Records Administration (NARA)
Affiliate Publication Number:    T9
Affiliate Film Number:    1159
Household    Role    Gender    Age    Birthplace
Aron Ruth    Self    M    60    Pennsylvania, United States
George Ruth    Son    M    19    Pennsylvania, United States
Fredrick Partenhimer    Son    M    4    Pennsylvania, United States
John Mc Guigan    Other    M    18    Pennsylvania, United States
William Ruth    Son    M    11    Pennsylvania, United States
Clara Partenhimer    Daughter    F    22    Pennsylvania, United States
Joseph Ruth    Son    M    16    Pennsylvania, United States
Catherine Ruth    Wife    F    52    Pennsylvania, United States District: 41 , Sheet Number and Letter: 339B , GS Film Number: 1255159 , Digital Folder Number: 004244443 , Image Number: 00416

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#109 Aug-02-2014 01:03:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Ruth genealogy site with the ability to click back through all ancestry and origins in Germany.

Aaron Ruth's line:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin … ;id=I80644

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#110 Aug-02-2014 01:29:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4359

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Geez!  They're "W" all the way back to that 1st Crow!

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#111 Aug-02-2014 05:44:pm

brambles
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Registered: Aug-01-2014
Posts: 6

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Good sleuthing, tree hugger! That would seem to confirm the exclusively white/European ancestry of the Ruth side of the family . . . except: In order to deal with the LNP's claim that a significant number of Lenape remained in Pennsylvania through intermarriage during the darkest years of the mid-18th century, shouldn't we also at least consider the possibility that Aron's wife Catharine--from the 1880 census-- might herself have had a Native American ancestor? (Same for Aron's father's wife, and so on?)

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#112 Aug-02-2014 06:43:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4359

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Of course, his purported Indian ancestry could be hiding anywhere in his ahnentafel.  But, what's the big secret?  Why doesn't he just show us this supposed Red Hawk (d.1777) lineage?  They read here.  The LNP has our e-mail message requesting documentation.  In the absence of any response, I don't know how we're to conclude anything other than that his claim is bogus.

Last edited by sschkaak (May-25-2015 07:14:pm)

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#113 Aug-02-2014 07:23:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

I think we can call this a done deal. None of these women in his line have verifiable Indian ancestry and with lack of input from them.. well case closed.

I still find it interesting that this lone Lenape woman (as per their stories) was the single line of genealogical ties.

.... and next we go to Shelley DePaul

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#114 Aug-02-2014 07:26:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

brambles wrote:

Good sleuthing, tree hugger! That would seem to confirm the exclusively white/European ancestry of the Ruth side of the family . . . except: In order to deal with the LNP's claim that a significant number of Lenape remained in Pennsylvania through intermarriage during the darkest years of the mid-18th century, shouldn't we also at least consider the possibility that Aron's wife Catharine--from the 1880 census-- might herself have had a Native American ancestor? (Same for Aron's father's wife, and so on?)

Absolutely, we should investigate this further.

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#115 Aug-02-2014 07:36:pm

sschkaak
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Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4359

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Another thing:  An ancestor who lived during the Revolutionary War invariably has dozens of living descendants, today.  Why is there no other person, anywhere, claiming descent from Red Hawk and proudly exhibiting their lineage, online or in print?

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#116 Aug-02-2014 07:42:pm

tree hugger
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Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Another thing, the LNP has always relied on oral history. What about the people that knew Bob in the early days, when he was 'white'. If the Indian stories are to believed shouldn't these be as well?

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#117 Aug-02-2014 08:54:pm

brambles
Visitor
Registered: Aug-01-2014
Posts: 6

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

tree hugger wrote:

I think we can call this a done deal. None of these women in his line have verifiable Indian ancestry and with lack of input from them.. well case closed.

I still find it interesting that this lone Lenape woman (as per their stories) was the single line of genealogical ties.

.... and next we go to Shelley DePaul

OK, then: Just to quote from an earlier post, citing the Times News Online (http://www.tnonline.com), Shelley "traced her own Lenape heritage to her grandfather, Robert Seipler."

I've found a reference to one Robert Seipler who was born August 12, 1883 and died October 1, 1971 in Allentown, PA.

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#118 Aug-02-2014 09:02:pm

brambles
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Registered: Aug-01-2014
Posts: 6

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Sorry, the full link to the story about Shelley is: http://www.tnonline.com/print/2009/nov/13/life-lenape

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#119 Aug-03-2014 05:53:am

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

sschkaak wrote:

Another thing:  An ancestor who lived during the Revolutionary War invariably has dozens of living descendants, today.  Why is there no other person, anywhere, claiming descent from Red Hawk and proudly exhibiting their lineage, online or in print?

Good question.

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#120 Aug-03-2014 06:02:am

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

OK, then: Just to quote from an earlier post, citing the Times News Online (http://www.tnonline.com), Shelley "traced her own Lenape heritage to her grandfather, Robert Seipler."

I've found a reference to one Robert Seipler who was born August 12, 1883 and died October 1, 1971 in Allentown, PA.

Just in the ten minutes or so I've done a quick search on this, I find some very interesting online ancestry charts. It appears that more than one ancestry.com user has made family trees. In fact one actually changes Robert's mothers maiden name to "Hawk". I'll follow up later as I confirm which one is more accurate. I think I already know though.

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#121 Aug-04-2014 09:38:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4359

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

They keep saying it:

"Many Lenape went west to Ohio, but DePaul said the tribe has about 320 members who have proven Lenape ancestry, often mixed with European blood, in the region."

http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/comm … f887a.html

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#122 Aug-08-2014 06:50:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

tree hugger wrote:

I thought I'd help them along a bit. Just trying to be of assistance wink

From Life as a Lenape: November 2009  http://www.tnonline.com/2009/nov/13/life-lenape


Shelley DePaul of Gilbert is the Assistant Chief of the Lenape (Len-ah-pay) Nation in Pennsylvania and she has made it her mission to help keep the Lenape Nation alive and to revive the Lenape language.

"My family is from here in this area. I began looking into my geneaology and learned that many of our ancestors married a Lenape native," says Shelley.

She learned that one of the first settlers to the area, Johannes Kunkle, married a Lenape, as did other settlers. She traced her own Lenape heritage to her grandfather, Robert Seipler.

Okay, let's look into this now.  We also see online that Shelley claims that this line is paternal from her great great grandmother. Robert Seiper's maternal grandmother (this would be the GG that Shelley claims) is listed as:


http://records.ancestry.com/sarah_alice … =128672240

Family Members
Parents
William S Serfass
1814-1891

Ebesina Mar
1825-Unknown

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/MWNK-74Q


Name:    Ebasenia Serfoss
Event Type:    Census
Event Year:    1880
Event Place:    Polk, Monroe, Pennsylvania, United States
Gender:    Female
Age:    55
Marital Status:    Married
Race:    White
Race (Original):    W
Occupation:    Keeping House
Relationship to Head of Household:    Wife
Relationship to Head of Household (Original):    Wife
Birth Year (Estimated):    1825
Birthplace:    Pennsylvania, United States
Father's Birthplace:    Pennsylvania, United States
Mother's Birthplace:    Pennsylvania, United States
Affiliate Name:    The U.S. National Archives and Records Administration (NARA)
Affiliate Publication Number:    T9
Affiliate Film Number:    1157
Household    Role    Gender    Age    Birthplace
William Serfoss    Self    M    64    Pennsylvania, United States
Ebasenia Serfoss    Wife    F    55    Pennsylvania, United States
Jefferson Serfoss    Son    M    17    Pennsylvania, United States
George B Mc Serfoss    Son    M    14    Pennsylvania, United States District: 224 , Sheet Number and Letter: 340A , GS Film Number: 1255157 , Digital Folder Number: 004244418 , Image Number: 00239

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#123 Aug-08-2014 06:58:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Let's go to the other side of the family, the Hawk surname that was illusive.

Here we have:

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin … p;id=I2607

ID: I2607
Name: Sallie "Sarah" HAWK
Given Name: Sallie "Sarah"
Surname: Hawk
Sex: F
Birth: 14 FEB 1824 in Chestnuthill Twp.,Northampton (now Monroe) Co.,PA
Christening: 21 MAR 1824 Salem Church,Gilbert,Northampton (now Monroe) Co.,PA
Death: MAY 1906 in Hickory Run,Carbon Co.,PA
Burial: MAY 1906 Laurel Cemetery,White Haven,Luzerne Co.,PA
Note:
The sponsors at the baptism of Sallie "Sarah" Hawk were Thomas Serfass and Elizabeth Dotter.

In 1850 Sarah (Hawk) Sipler (listed as Supler), b. in PA age 26, was living in Penn Forest Twp., Carbon Co., PA, with her husband, Jacob Sipler b. in Germany age 35, a sawer, and five children, all born in PA:
- Mary Sipler age 9
- George Sipler age 8
- Catherine Sipler age 5
- Stephen Sipler age 3
- Reida Supler age 2
Also listed in their household were two laborers, Adam Christman age 22 and Solomon Christman age 61. (1850 census, microfilm roll M432_762, Page 222B, house #

In 1860 Sarah (Hawk) Sipler (listed as Sibler), age 37, was living in Polk Twp., Monroe Co., PA, with her husband, Jacob Sipler/Sibler age 46, a mill wright, and seven of their children:
- son George Sipler age 17, a laborer
- son Rudolph Sipler age 12
- daughter Elizabeth Sipler age 9
- son Jacob F. Sipler age 7
- daughter Margaret Sipler age 5
- daughter Ebasena Sipler age 2
- daughter Sallyann Sipler age 3 months
Everyone in the household was born in PA. (1860 census, microfilm roll M653_1142, Pages 677 and 678, house #966, family #1024)

In 1880 Sallie (Hawk) Sipler (listed in the census as "Sarah Sipler), b. in PA age 57, was living in South Kidder Twp., Carbon Co., PA, with her husband, Jacob Sipler born in Germany age 67, a laborer, and three of their children, all born in PA:
- daughter Emma Sipler age 17
- daughter Ellen Sipler age 15
- son James F. Sipler age 9
Also listed in their household was a boarder, Jennie Kunkle age 2. (1880 census, microfilm roll T9-1108, Family History Film: 1255108, Page 559D, house #146, family #156)

In 1900 Sarah (Hawk) Sipler, b. in PA, b. Feb 1824 age 76, a widow, was living in East Side Borough, Carbon Co., PA. Also listed in her house were her married son, James F. Sipler b. Mar 1871, a day laborer, and his wife, Emma Sipler b. May 1873, and their two sons: Raymond Sipler b. Dec 1893 at school, and Oscar Sipler b. Sep 1894. James and Emma had been married for 7 years. Emma was the mother of 3 children, of whom 2 were living in 1900. Everyone in the house was born in PA. (1900 census, microfilm roll 1390, Page 2A, house #22, families #22 and #23)

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#124 Aug-08-2014 07:08:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Here is the index to surnames and ancestry that is readily clickable. There is nothing in any of these lines that support Indian ancestry

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin … amp;id=I39

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#125 Aug-08-2014 07:09:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11108

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

What crow is talking now?

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