Woodland Indians Forum

You are not logged in.

Announcement

#76 Jul-21-2014 09:50:am

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11096

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

sschkaak wrote:

I guess their minimum standard for verifiable Lenape ancestry is exactly what their good friend, Donald Repsher, wrote in his book, The Common Sense Life:

"If some families have a distant, almost-forgotten memory of a long-ago Indian ancestor the chances are this memory is based on fact.  Otherwise it would not have been passed along.  In some families the ancient traditions were not all forgotten."  -page 133

This was not good enough for me, in my own search for Indian ancestry.  It really can't be good enough for our forum, either.

Wow! neutral

Offline

 

#77 Jul-21-2014 11:08:pm

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 968

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Suckachsinheet wrote:

Oops. Forgot the comments. To be succinct, I concur. The charges as presented (even about me) are true to my recollection. Some of that stuff I did not actually witness; some of it I did. But all of the information presented is in keeping with what I knew of those groups and their events.

One clarification, strictly from my perspective. All the comments made about the Teaching Drum and how it was kept and treated are accurate to my knowledge, but I never saw that drum in the same light as the other big drums I knew of, e.g. Grandmother's Heart, Seven Cedars, and others, precisely because of the way it was handled and treated and because I never saw it used at a powwow circle. I probably should have held it to the same standard, but I just never saw it that way. It was used to sing the Walam Olum at a solstice celebration (yeah, I know, but nevertheless...), so that may have been an occasion that should have set off the red flags but I guess I wasn't thinking about that at the time. And I suppose, likewise, any dance circle, public or private, should require the same level of respect for the drum.


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

Offline

 

#78 Jul-22-2014 10:43:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
Website

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Slightly edited Post #17, as indicated therein.

Offline

 

#79 Jul-22-2014 03:01:pm

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

I have 2 DOCUMENTED chiefs in my ancestry. One legendary (Tayac Norwood) and one a complete idiot (Tayac Dixon Coursey)  but I have the papers to prove it so lets see something that's not "Oral History". You people are looking at this enough. yikes


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
---------------------------------------------------
      Warning:  Some Profanity
This might cause you to experience reason

Offline

 

#80 Jul-22-2014 06:02:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
Website

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Recognition from us doesn't matter to them, when they get that recognition from some Indians, some anthropologists, some universities and many members of the general public.  Frankly, our forum's extremely tolerant, bare minimum standards for acknowledgment are actually higher than those set by these others.  Go figure.   hmm

Last edited by sschkaak (Jul-22-2014 07:27:pm)

Offline

 

#81 Jul-23-2014 08:27:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
Website

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

sschkaak wrote:

Recognition from us doesn't matter to them, when they get that recognition from some Indians, some anthropologists, some universities and many members of the general public.  Frankly, our forum's extremely tolerant, bare minimum standards for acknowledgment are actually higher than those set by these others.  Go figure.   hmm

And the truth is that our standard is no more than that which they, themselves, profess as their own:  "verifiable Lenape Ancestry."

Offline

 

#82 Jul-23-2014 12:24:pm

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

sschkaak wrote:

sschkaak wrote:

Recognition from us doesn't matter to them, when they get that recognition from some Indians, some anthropologists, some universities and many members of the general public.  Frankly, our forum's extremely tolerant, bare minimum standards for acknowledgment are actually higher than those set by these others.  Go figure.   hmm

And the truth is that our standard is no more than that which they, themselves, profess as their own:  "verifiable Lenape Ancestry."

Agreed.


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
---------------------------------------------------
      Warning:  Some Profanity
This might cause you to experience reason

Offline

 

#83 Jul-28-2014 10:50:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
Website

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

From the LNP website:

"Who are the people of the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania? That is a question that is often asked. An easy answer is that we are the indigenous peoples of this land now called Pennsylvania. Yet there is so much more. Our history is unique, and it is really the story of families and survival. It is a story of honoring treaties and following certain leaders such as Issac Still,Tatamay, and Teedyuskung.

"We are the descendents of the Lenape people who stayed in our homeland and of those who went west to Ohio and returned. Our families include descendents of Hannah Freeman, Issac Still, Killbuck, and Henry. Some settled in the Pocono Mountains and others in Allentown, Nazareth, and Bethlehem. Many lived on both sides of the Delaware River in Easton and Burlington where communities were documented in1840. Our Brown and Still families come from the Brotherton and Shamong areas of New Jersey.  Some descend from the inhabitants of missions such as Shekomeko, Friedenshutten, and Meniolagomeka. Others are the descendants of marriages between the Lenape and the earliest German immigrants. Our history is a rich one in which we take great pride."

Offline

 

#84 Jul-28-2014 11:05:am

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Brown and Still family???????? I'd really like to see that documentation because I call bullshit on both.
I lived around Stills and many are my kissing cousins up in Lawnside and they came from Indian Mills. Clarence Still is their family historian and has both the Indian and Black side of the family's geneology. Since they founded Lawnside UME, the sister church of Fordsville AME they are heavily tied in with the Pierces.


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
---------------------------------------------------
      Warning:  Some Profanity
This might cause you to experience reason

Offline

 

#85 Jul-28-2014 11:24:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
Website

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

I'd be very interested in seeing any genealogy of Isaac Still (Stille; Stelle), the Delaware Indian, because I have never seen reference to any of his descendants, except for his one son.  And, of course, anyone can say anybody is an ancestor--but, where is the evidence?

Offline

 

#86 Jul-28-2014 11:51:am

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

sschkaak wrote:

but, where is the evidence?

More anal......oops "oral history". hmm


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
---------------------------------------------------
      Warning:  Some Profanity
This might cause you to experience reason

Offline

 

#87 Jul-28-2014 12:02:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
Website

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

This book, Invisible Indians:  Native Americans in Pennsylvania, in a section about the Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape, the authors state:  "In our research with Lenapes in southeastern Pennsylvania, we found many who had family or friendship ties with those in New Jersey, and several prominent members of Pennsylvanian Native American organizations actually live in Bridgeton, New Jersey." (Page 42) 

(Emphasis in bold type added by me.)

Last edited by sschkaak (Jul-29-2014 09:27:pm)

Offline

 

#88 Jul-28-2014 12:16:pm

NanticokePiney
Member
From: Hopewell Twp., New Jersey
Registered: Jul-10-2007
Posts: 4214

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

sschkaak wrote:

This book, Invisible Indians:  Native Americans in Pennsylvania, in a section about the Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape, the authors state:  "In our research with Lenapes in southeastern Pennsylvania, we found many who had family or friendship ties with those in New Jersey, and several prominent members of Pennsylvanian Native American organizations actually live in Bridgeton, New Jersey." (Page 42) 

(Emphasis in bold type added by me.)

The authors never state who they actually are though. Just a vague reference. More B.S.


I don't have anger issues...just violent reactions to B.S.
---------------------------------------------------
      Warning:  Some Profanity
This might cause you to experience reason

Offline

 

#89 Jul-28-2014 12:20:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
Website

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Correct.

Offline

 

#90 Jul-29-2014 03:51:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
Website

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

"Our families include descendents of Hannah Freeman ..."

Hold on!  Hannah Freeman gave a deposition in 1797, near the end of her life, in which we have the only known facts about her life.  She mentions her mother, grandmother, two aunts, father, and two brothers, and includes accounts of various  events in her life--but does not mention having any children.  Some ambiguous local legends mention an "Indian Andrew," some which say he was her husband and others say her father.  Other tales of her even mention her two dogs, by name!  Elmon and Putmoe.  But, in none of these stories does she have any children.  She died alone, in the Chester County Poor House, in 1802.  So, how can people living today produce evidence of their descent from Hannah Freeman?

(See Hannah Freeman's deposition, here:  http://woodlandindians.org/forums/viewt … 659#p43659)

Last edited by sschkaak (Jul-29-2014 06:00:am)

Offline

 

#91 Jul-29-2014 07:07:am

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11096

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Well that shoots one more of their claims out of the water.

Offline

 

#92 Jul-29-2014 08:02:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
Website

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

ANNALS OF PHILADELPHIA, by John Fanning Watson (1830)

Isaac Still

Was a celebrated Indian of good education, a leader of the last remains of the Delawares adjacent to Philadelphia. He was a christian man of fine morals and much good sense; and was therefore employed as agent and interpreter, in French as well as English, in many important missions to distant Indians; he was said to have travelled further over the surface of our country to the unknown wilds of the West, than any other individual, and having seen, as he said, the Rocky mountains and the white Indians; his journal of observations were deemed important, and were therefore taken down by some one for publication; but where it now is, is not known.* For a considerable time he dwelt with his family, in wigwam style, on a part of Logan's place, now called the Indian field; their only son, Joshua, in the mean time, was educated at the German town school house. In 1771, he moved up into Buckingham, purposing there to collect his scattered tribe, and to move them off to the Wabash, "far away, as he said, from war and rum." This he effected in the fall of 1775, having with him about 40 persons, chiefly females, as the men and the young and active (about 20) had gone on before. Mr. Samuel Preston, who witnessed their departure, describes Still as a fine looking man, wearing a hat ornamented with feathers. The women, all bareheaded, each loaded with a large pack on their back, fastened Avith broad straps across their foreheads, thus making their heads bear much of the burthen, they proceeded in regular form of march. Thus ended, in the year 1775, the last vestige of Leni Lenape from the neighbourhood of Philadelphia, and from Bucks county and Jersey! Many further particulars concerning Isaac Still as an Indian, and of his services as a useful agent and ally to our cause, are told in several MS. letters from the said Samuel Preston, and may be consulted on page 556, and following, in my MS. book deposited with the Historical Society of Pennsylvania, to whom the facts therein told, more appropriately belong.

* It was done while he was on Logan's place, as he said himself,—and Mr. Samuel Preston has suggested (Vide my MS. book,) some papers and families, where he thinks it might yet be found,—say among the papers of Logan, Doctor Barton, or H. Drinker, or E.


(Unfortunately, Isaac Still's journal has never yet been found.  He died of smallpox in 1776.  Any male who bears the surname, Still, and thinks he is a descendant of this Isaac Still, has a chance to prove it by a simple, inexpensive Y-chromosome DNA test, to show if his haplogroup is one of those restricted to American Indians--a test which is accurate 100% of the time.  Any Freeman males can do the same, if they believe Indian Andrew was Hannah Freeman's husband.  Any takers?)

Last edited by sschkaak (Jul-29-2014 08:04:am)

Offline

 

#93 Jul-29-2014 12:01:pm

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
Website

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

I wonder why none of Hannah Freeman's "descendants" showed up for the re-dedication ceremony of her monument:  http://woodlandindians.org/forums/viewt … p?id=10245

Offline

 

#94 Jul-30-2014 10:25:am

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11096

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

I wonder why none of Hannah Freeman's "descendants" showed up for the re-dedication ceremony of her monument

Maybe because she had none.

Offline

 

#95 Jul-30-2014 10:32:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
Website

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

tree hugger wrote:

I wonder why none of Hannah Freeman's "descendants" showed up for the re-dedication ceremony of her monument

Maybe because she had none.

That is a distinct possibility.

Offline

 

#96 Jul-30-2014 01:29:pm

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11096

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

We see from the passage below that Bob Ruth claims Indian ancestry in his paternal line. So either one or both of his paternal grandparents must be Indian. That should be easy enough to prove.


The Last Speakers: The Quest to Save the World's Most Endangered Languages
By K. David Harrison

http://books.google.com/books?id=EajTZx … mp;f=false

/pb.php?url=http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e283/woodlandindians/forum/lnp2_zps05980121.jpg

Offline

 

#97 Jul-31-2014 12:22:am

Suckachsinheet
Member
Registered: Sep-11-2007
Posts: 968

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

...and important phrases, like "where's the bathroom", "how much does that cost" and "when do we eat"?


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

Offline

 

#98 Aug-01-2014 06:45:am

sschkaak
Moderator
Registered: Sep-17-2007
Posts: 4344
Website

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Time's up.  sad

Offline

 

#99 Aug-01-2014 08:00:am

tree hugger
Site Admin
Registered: May-12-2006
Posts: 11096

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

sschkaak wrote:

Time's up.  sad

Can't say we didn't try. sad

Offline

 

#100 Aug-01-2014 07:57:pm

brambles
Visitor
Registered: Aug-01-2014
Posts: 6

Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

tree hugger wrote:

We see from the passage below that Bob Ruth claims Indian ancestry in his paternal line. So either one or both of his paternal grandparents must be Indian. That should be easy enough to prove.


The Last Speakers: The Quest to Save the World's Most Endangered Languages
By K. David Harrison

http://books.google.com/books?id=EajTZx … mp;f=false

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e283/ … 980121.jpg

Hi, Everyone! I may be your newest newcomer, after two weeks or so of avid reading as a guest. By now I can recognize some distinctive voices among you regulars (grin).

As others here in the Delaware Valley may have already noticed, K. David Harrison is Associate Professor and Chair of Linguistics at Swarthmore College--which hosts Shelley DePaul's Lenape language classes. Harrison's wording suggests that his informant regarding Bob Red Hawk Ruth's secret was not Bob, but Shelley herself.

(Now here's hoping I formatted this reply correctly, bein' new and all . . . .)

Offline

 

Board footer

Powered by PunBB
© Copyright 2002–2005 Rickard Andersson