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#51 Jul-19-2014 10:51:am

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Has there ever been a rebuttal, by the LNP, to Jane Quick's statement? 

On one of the rare occasions when Jim Beer came to the farm, I told him I was feeling better as I had found a good doctor who had helped me. Jim replied "That's too bad I hate to hear that." with a smug grin.

This is especially distrurbing.

Last edited by sschkaak (Jun-25-2018 03:37:pm)

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#52 Jul-19-2014 11:03:am

tree hugger
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Not that I am aware of. At the time I received Jane's statement via email it was also copied to numerous government agencies and Tribes in Oklahoma. I have never heard of anything from the LNP end in response to it.

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#53 Jul-19-2014 11:58:am

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

I'm wondering if LNP members ever saw this statement.  If not, I'm hoping they'll respond to it here.  I've read it three times, now, and I have one major two-part question about it:  How much of a hand did the late Sharon Nolte have in influencing Jane Quick and drafting her statement?  She was obviously involved, to some extent.  In any case, here is an opportunity for the LNP to respond.

P.S. - If this went to the Oklahoma tribes from SN, it might explain why they ignored it.

Last edited by sschkaak (Jul-19-2014 12:00:pm)

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#54 Jul-19-2014 12:02:pm

tree hugger
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

I'll go back and double check but I do believe this was forwarded to them as well (I want to check my facts first)

Sharon did indeed have a hand in helping to legally get Jane's farm back. I spoke on the phone to Jane at the time, and I can assure you that these were her true feelings and thoughts on the subject along with a lot more colorful thoughts that were not put into words. neutral Whether she had help writing this, I can't say for sure.

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#55 Jul-19-2014 12:06:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Many thanks!  I accept the statement as hers, then.  Now, let's see what the LNP has to offer concerning the matter.  neutral

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#56 Jul-19-2014 12:57:pm

tree hugger
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Okay I've double checked through old emails, I can not say for a fact that the LNP was sent this. I was told they were, but I can't confirm that.

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#57 Jul-19-2014 01:16:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

The one vague citation of what might be a documented American Indian ancestor I have seen is that of Ann Dapice's great-great-great-great-great grandfather, Joseph Ames (born circa 1753), in an area somewhere near the headwaters of the Delaware River (extreme northern Munsee territory).  On the LNP website, she gives an account of her family history.  In one place, she writes:

Samuel's father was probably Mathias Ames (according to one online source), his father was Joseph Ames born around 1753 and baptism records show no last name for him at the time of baptism. He later shows up as Joseph Ames on census records. His parents were listed on baptism records as Jacob and Maria (stated as Indians on the baptism records).

This documentation might be authentic; however, it does raise some questions.  Why mention that his baptism record shows no last name?  Most baptism records I've seen don't.  If this record lists his father's or parents' surname, why bother to even mention that his does not?  If he later shows up on census records as "Joseph Ames," how can one tell that this is the same "Joseph" (no surname) who was on the baptismal record?  She states that his parents were listed on baptism records as Indians.  What baptism records?  Not on "Joseph's," or why did his last name need to be found on "census records"?  Were "Joseph's" parents even named on his baptismal record?  Were they just listed as "Jacob" and "Maria" (also no last name)?  I would be very interested as to how the determination was made that Joseph Ames of the later census records was the same person as the Joseph of the baptismal record; and, how the Jacob and Maria stated to be Indians were the parents of Joseph Ames of the later census records. 

If the documentation holds up, then Ann Dapice is, apparently, 1/128 Munsee Delaware--providiing, of course, that Joseph was a full-blood.  (The question of whether or not he was a Lenape or of some other tribe cannot be answered, but I would certainly accept this as the most logical assumption.)

Last edited by sschkaak (Jun-25-2018 03:39:pm)

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#58 Jul-19-2014 02:58:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

The Delaware Chief, Red Hawk, was murdered, along with Cornstalk, in November, 1777, by U.S. Army troops, in the fort which was located at what, today, is Point Pleasant, West Virginia, in the Ohio River country.  Could this really be Bob Ruth's "ancestor"?  Maybe.  But, I think what we have here is another example of the creative use of language, where "ancestor" simply means a long ago member of one's nation.  I doubt that Red Hawk was Bob Ruth's direct lineal ancestor.  Perhaps, he'll clear this up for us.

http://books.google.com/books?id=MyYiAA … mp;f=false

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#59 Jul-19-2014 06:29:pm

tree hugger
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Well, I've been waiting and continue to do so.

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#60 Jul-19-2014 06:43:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Shelley DePaul is supposed to be descended from a Lenape woman who married into the Kunkle family.  On another thread, I posted this:

Here's a site with a pretty damn good genealogy of the Kunkle family.  I don't see any mention of a Lenape or Indian spouse, anywhere.

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/us - 02text.txt

Unfortunately, this site can no longer be seen, unless you join Genealogy.com .  In any case, perhaps the documentation of this Lenape ancestry will be posted here.

Last edited by sschkaak (Jun-25-2018 03:43:pm)

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#61 Jul-19-2014 06:51:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

My friend, Phil Rice, claims descent from Teedyuscung (1700-1763).  I forget how.  He also has Tobias ancestry, although whether or not his Tobias forbears were Indian, I don't know.  Maybe, he has found out.  It has been many years since we last communicated.

This ends the four claims which actually name supposed ancestors that I know about.  The Lenape ancestry of the rest of the LNP members is a mystery to me.

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#62 Jul-19-2014 07:03:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Tree Hugger:  This excerpt from Minderhout's book is from your post on the "Invisible Indians" in PA thread, Message #44, on page 2:

In the Northampton County area here, we've learned from the elders that people would leave their children with the German farmers before they fled to keep from getting killed. One was the daughter of George Rex [an 18th century Lenape sachem]; she was left behind to be raised by the Frantz family. Many of the Frantz's around here don't know that they're related to a Lenape princess (laughs!) if you want to use that word. It was done mainly to keep a connection to the land, which you know is sacred to a native.

I don't know if Minderhout's co-author, Andrea Frantz, claims this ancestry; or if she's in the LNP.  But, ???

Last edited by sschkaak (Jul-19-2014 07:10:pm)

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#63 Jul-19-2014 08:14:pm

NanticokePiney
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

sschkaak wrote:

Tree Hugger:  This excerpt from Minderhout's book is from your post on the "Invisible Indians" in PA thread, Message #44, on page 2:

we've learned from the elders

This means it's undocumented and can never be proven. neutral


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#64 Jul-19-2014 10:29:pm

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Well, you can scratch the Frantz thing.  When the authors wrote many Frantz's don't know they're "related" to an Indian--that relationship was by adoption, anyway--assuming the tradition is even correct.  See this from GenForum:

George Rex Northumberland PA Indian
Posted by: Ashley Shank Date: August 05, 1999 at 15:13:38
   of 678 


I am looking for information about George Rex, indian name unknown a Delaware Indian Chief. He lived at the Moravarian Mission at Memiolagomeka later bethlehem PA. He was born around 1716 and was baptised in 1749 afterward was a missionary converting many indians to Christianity. He had 3 wives, Anna Benigna, also a delaware indian, Ester, a Mohican, and Augustina. He had 2 sons by his first wife, Bedith and Achkowema one of whom was later known as Joseph. What I need to know is whether or not he had a daughter, Shalotta, Charlotte or Sharlot Juliana, (The name she was know by after being adopted by Heinrich and Susanna Frantz). Their is no documentation of any of his female children surviving past 1 year. Shalotta would have been born about 1775 and married Nicholas Altemus a resident of Northumberland Co. PA. She and Nicholas are buried in Monroe Co. Any help in solving the mystery would be greatly appreciated.

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#65 Jul-19-2014 11:49:pm

Suckachsinheet
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

sschkaak wrote:

I found this old post, from an anonymous LNP member, at the NAFPS forum (August 21, 2005), under the topic, "Quinnipiac Renapi."  I've highlighted its relevance to this thread.

Name withheld-
Doris aligns herself to Tom Big Warrior who is the biggest twinkie I ever seen. He has a big mouth, no respect. He claims to be Chief of RedHeart Warrior Society which is made up of prisoners in the jails, he also claims to be the History Keeper of Eastern Lenape Nation??? This guy is also in cohoots with Chief Billy Blue Feather or whatever he calls himself they are out of Conn. and are the ones who adopt whether you can be there or not, I think you had the link acqtc .com These people are bad news, they come down as guests of Tom Big Warrior and throw this area in turmoil. How? Lenape Nation of Pa. is envolved with the city of Easton to get a monument put up by the city to honor our ancestors. Tom decides to get these Conn. people involed and run the thing. We walked out of meetings with the city and Tom. The town has since seen that they realized they made a mistake and asked us to come back without Tom or the Conn. people. These are the same people who put on a dance called the Lenape buffalo dance, and also Lenape style martial arts???  Never heard that one before.

I know I'm backing up, but I thought about this today and have some observations. I find it curious that the writer chooses to play the "us and them" card if the LNP is above board. I won't bother to defend any of them, but there are some inaccurate or incomplete statements made here.

Doris [Riverbird Woman] Pieschel aligned herself with Tom Big Warrior Watts after Bill Whippoorwill Thompson crossed over and control of the Eastern Lenape Nation moved to Bob Ruth, before it became the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania. Doris tried to keep the ELN name alive, but I don't think she got any traction on that. She aligned her Turtle Island Chautauqua group with Big Warrior's Traditional United Eastern Lenape Nation to form a Woodlands Confederacy. Big Warrior had been in cahoots with Billy Blue Feather Harford for a long time; they were both alumni of Sam Grey Wolf Hanna's United Lenape Band and both claimed ascendancy to that chieftainship. I have documented the splintering of the ULB elsewhere. I suppose by the time of this article the Confederacy had become the Algonquian Confederacy of the Quinnipiac Tribal Council. I think there were players from Connecticut involved (Chief Longbow and others?), but Big Warrior is from eastern PA and Blue Feather is from western PA.

As you can see from the Jane Quick statement, all the whining about the Easton affair is truly the pot calling the kettle black. Piney speaks well of Big Warrior as a history keeper, though I doubt he gives him much praise in any other aspect.

When I saw a demonstration, the martial arts were supposed to be Shawnee, an art form called "shaloockwa" [sp.?] which was supposed to mean "beautiful water". The whole thing was assembled by Dale White Panther Fryer, who I believe is heading up the United Eastern Lenape Nation now. White Panther is a martial arts instructor in more conventional martial arts, so he is certainly capable of "recreating" the martial art form, which was based off a curious indentation in a tomahawk handle from an archeological site in Ohio. This always struck as me as similar to recreating an entire dinosaur from a single tooth. There are references where he is associated with the Traditional United Eastern Lenape Nation also, so I surmise that the boundaries between those two groups remain quite permeable.

Not so sure about the Buffalo Dance thing, unless it was associated with the white buffalo fiasco at Nemacolin Woodlands a few years ago. The Standing Stone village of the United Eastern Lenape Nation was very involved in that.

Anyhow, all of these groups are intertwined in interesting ways. If you know the history, the LNP is not much better. But knowing all of this history is the key to all of it. The alliances that the quest for prestige and recognition have spawned throughout the histories of all of these claimant groups could probably fill another book, but no one wants to see that one in print! And I don't want to write it here. If there are points that need further clarification, we will try to provide it. It can be complicated and even circuitous...

Last edited by Suckachsinheet (Jul-19-2014 11:55:pm)


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#66 Jul-20-2014 06:56:am

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Paul:  You should read this entire thread at NAFPS--especially, Doris' replies in Messages 11 and 12, on page 1.  Comments appreciated.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=321.0

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#67 Jul-20-2014 07:01:am

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

sschkaak wrote:

Well, you can scratch the Frantz thing.  When the authors wrote many Frantz's don't know they're "related" to an Indian--that relationship was by adoption, anyway--assuming the tradition is even correct.  See this from GenForum:

George Rex Northumberland PA Indian
Posted by: Ashley Shank Date: August 05, 1999 at 15:13:38
   of 678 


I am looking for information about George Rex, indian name unknown a Delaware Indian Chief. He lived at the Moravarian Mission at Memiolagomeka later bethlehem PA. He was born around 1716 and was baptised in 1749 afterward was a missionary converting many indians to Christianity. He had 3 wives, Anna Benigna, also a delaware indian, Ester, a Mohican, and Augustina. He had 2 sons by his first wife, Bedith and Achkowema one of whom was later known as Joseph. What I need to know is whether or not he had a daughter, Shalotta, Charlotte or Sharlot Juliana, (The name she was know by after being adopted by Heinrich and Susanna Frantz). Their is no documentation of any of his female children surviving past 1 year. Shalotta would have been born about 1775 and married Nicholas Altemus a resident of Northumberland Co. PA. She and Nicholas are buried in Monroe Co. Any help in solving the mystery would be greatly appreciated.

Well, it didn't take long for this tradition to evaporate.  George Rex died in 1762, while being cared for, in his final illness, by David Zeisberger. (Olmstead, Earl, David Zeisberger:  A Life Among the Indians, p.106.)  He would have been hard-pressed to have had a daughter born "about 1775"!

Last edited by sschkaak (Jul-20-2014 07:37:am)

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#68 Jul-20-2014 08:57:am

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

sschkaak wrote:

The one vague citation of what might be a documented American Indian ancestor I have seen is that of Ann Dapice's great-great-great-great-great grandfather, Joseph Ames (born circa 1753), in an area somewhere near the headwaters of the Delaware River (extreme northern Munsee territory).  On the LNP website, she gives an account of her family history.  In one place, she writes:

Samuel's father was probably Mathias Ames (according to one online source), his father was Joseph Ames born around 1753 and baptism records show no last name for him at the time of baptism. He later shows up as Joseph Ames on census records. His parents were listed on baptism records as Jacob and Maria (stated as Indians on the baptism records).

How did I miss this the first time?  Here, she plainly states that the father of her great-great-great grandfather, Samuel Ames, was "PROBABLY" a son of the alleged Indian, Joseph Ames.

Last edited by sschkaak (Jun-25-2018 03:46:pm)

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#69 Jul-20-2014 09:00:am

tree hugger
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Probably?? neutral

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#70 Jul-20-2014 09:11:am

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

tree hugger wrote:

Probably?? neutral

smile  Genealogical researchers and lineage societies generally accept a stated relationship if it meets the standard of "a preponderance of evidence"--rather than "proof beyond a reasonable doubt."  However, this hardly meets that first standard, unless there is documentary evidence to show it.  Thus far, we haven't seen it.  I expect it will be in their reply to our requests?

Last edited by sschkaak (Jul-20-2014 04:02:pm)

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#71 Jul-20-2014 10:23:am

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

Noticed this historical faux pas in Ruth's statement about "his ancestor," posted previously:  Ruth said in a telephone interview that one of his ancestors, Redhawk, was killed by the British at Point Pleasant as he tried to warn a colonial garrison of an impending attack.

Red Hawk was killed by the Americans--NOT by the British.

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#72 Jul-20-2014 03:50:pm

Suckachsinheet
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

sschkaak wrote:

Paul:  You should read this entire thread at NAFPS--especially, Doris' replies in Messages 11 and 12, on page 1.  Comments appreciated.

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=321.0

Well, that was fun. And I even got some attention! I remember that interchange, which was lifted from another forum.

As I said, its all about keeping the history. Or as we used to say in the church, you can't tell the sinners without a scorecard. All of that action took place in 2005, while I was pretty much out of circulation, except for participating on forums, so I certainly learned quite a bit about what was going on while I was out of the loop. And again, as I said, it all gets intertwined and circuitous. Or as Solomon observed, "there is nothing new under the sun". Or, the modern Sonny and Cher version, "the beat goes on".

Oops. Forgot the comments. To be succinct, I concur. The charges as presented (even about me) are true to my recollection. Some of that stuff I did not actually witness; some of it I did. But all of the information presented is in keeping with what I knew of those groups and their events.

Last edited by Suckachsinheet (Jul-20-2014 03:54:pm)


It's in the blood; I can't let go. - Robbie Robertson

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#73 Jul-21-2014 07:28:am

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

40 days since TH made the first request for information.  10 days since a request was made via e-mail message to them.  I'm going to suggest that if we receive no response, by the end of this month, that we transfer all topics regarding the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania, which appear on other boards, into this area of the forum--until such time as we get the information we need to justify their inclusion among Lenape descendants.  I'm very disappointed.

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#74 Jul-21-2014 07:34:am

tree hugger
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

sschkaak wrote:

40 days since TH made the first request for information.  10 days since a request was made via e-mail message to them.  I'm going to suggest that if we receive no response, by the end of this month, that we transfer all topics regarding the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania, which appear on other boards, into this area of the forum--until such time as we get the information we need to justify their inclusion among Lenape descendants.  I'm very disappointed.

I was thinking along the same lines. At the least, I was hoping they would reply to your email.

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#75 Jul-21-2014 08:05:am

sschkaak
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Re: Documentary Evidence on the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania.

I guess their minimum standard for verifiable Lenape ancestry is exactly what their good friend, Donald Repsher, wrote in his book, The Common Sense Life:

"If some families have a distant, almost-forgotten memory of a long-ago Indian ancestor the chances are this memory is based on fact.  Otherwise it would not have been passed along.  In some families the ancient traditions were not all forgotten."  -page 133

This was not good enough for me, in my own search for Indian ancestry.  It really can't be good enough for our forum, either.

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